Collab talk:Gobrassanya/Railways

High-speed railway routes

Hi, I'm planning to tidy up the mapping of the GoHSR railway lines, adding proper route relations and rationalising the system such that it is, barely, realistic. Currently we have the following mapped as GoHSR

File:Gohsr-current.jpg

Current

. The plans would be to rationalise, limiting unrealistic mountain sections and having three primary routes:

North Coast: (Alora -) Queensboro - Gautig - Ontaro - Havreg - Gobras City - Otanakee - Kalabag - Marapura - Khaiwoon
Gobras City - Sterbing - Carratta - Kenrich - Puerto Geo - Ormeo - Uchina - Marapura - Laguna
Havreg - Gobras City - Otanakee - Laguna

File:Gohsr-proposal.jpg

Proposal

/wangi (talk) 03:58, 31 May 2019 (CEST)

Hi Wangi,

It's indeed a good idea to figure out the GoHSR route relations. I recently worked on the GoHSR network too, as you can see around the Gobras Worldport.

I find the GoHSR network in it's current state quite good. To me, it seems like a bad idea to remove the GoHSR branch Carratta - Phailoon City - Quesagnais, since it's a vital link to connect those cities to the capital. Without the rail link the Grand Lake metro area would be pretty isolated to the rest of the country, while still being a large metro area and that seems odd. And besides that, the rail line mostly runs in a valley with only a longer tunnel near Neglide, so I don't think that's unrealistic given Gobrassanya is a wealthy country. In real world there are much more mountainous stretches of high speed rail, for example take a look at the Basque Y which is currently under construction in Spain, with more than 60% tunnels.

About the service pattern: I think it might be worth differentiating between local and express high speed services, where local services can make some extra stops in smaller GoHSR stations along the route, for example in places like Sugar Valley near Marapura (or like in real world French TGV's stopping in places like Mâcon TGV). This differentiation would help overcome the problem that a lot of mappers in Gobrassanya like to put GoHSR stations in the cities they map, while not looking too much to what that means for the service pattern. So by introducing this, those smaller stations aren't necessarily a problem anymore and can actually be quite interesting additions to the map, while not creating problems for the GoHSR trains running between the large cities.

I also recently mapped a new GoHSR station at the Worldport, the largest and most important airport in the country, likely having most international and intercontinental flights. The idea behind it is that it was quite unrealistic to have the GoHSR line running just outside the airport area, whereas in real world such a large airport would certainly benefit from direct high speed rail access. The GoHSR trains can now bring passengers to the airport from throughout the country as a very important feeder, reducing domestic air travel significantly. Because of that, I planned all GoHSR trains between Carratta and Gobras City to make a stop in the Worldport station, and also lengthening the Khaiwoon - Gobras City service to the Worldport. (Also, normal intercity trains can run services on the short stretch of GoHSR tracks between Gobras City and Worlport and also between Chanton and Worldport for trains running from mainline railways.)

So given al of this, I have a more comprehensive service pattern in mind:

North Coast route (1 per hour): (Alora -) Queensboro - Gautig - Ontaro - Havreg - Gobras City - Otanakee - Laguna - Marapura - Khaiwoon
South Coast route (1 per hour): Gobras City - Worldport - Carratta - Kenrich - Puerto Geo - Ormeo - Uchina - Marapura - Marapura International Airport
Grand Lake/Gobras City/Khaiwoon route (1 per hour): Quesagnais - Phailoon City - Carratta - Worldport - Gobras City - Otanakee - Marapura - Khaiwoon
North Coast route (east) local service (1 per hour): Havreg - Gobras City - Artana - Lenox - Kalabag - Sugar Valley (or Gorrawati) - Marapura International Airport - Marapura
Optional in future: local services on other branches too

The branch to Margeson Airport could probably best become integrated in the mainline rail network.

Squizie3 (talk) 18:51, 31 May 2019 (CEST)

I'm all for rationalization of some of Gobrassanya's excess infrastructure – how about some of the local-express motorways in and around Gobras City – but I agree with Squizie3 that a bit more could be retained than in Wangi's first sketch, especially for a country that may be concerned about national cohesion and with the money to spend on it. I was a bit concerned though about the overly optimistic HSR alignments that appeared recently in and around Worldport. There is no need to design for such high speeds so close to a city center, where all trains are stopping so limited by the need to accelerate/decelerate, alignments are constrained and there are lots of neighbors to sue over property impacts or displacements, when the route through District Line Rd was more realistic. This is a good example of Gobrassanya needing to be designed with real-world constraints in mind... the ideal isn't always possible and plenty of major world airports are off the main rail line and making do with subways, spurs or other solutions (ATL / ORD / JFK / LAX / LHR / MAD / BCN / MUC).

I second the idea of local and express HSR routes and designed the southern missing link in that sense (Katyapura - West Marapura - Marapura International Airport - Marapura). The idea is that Khaiwoon would be a very strong draw for commuters post-HSR, with Khaiwoon nearly built out and depending on the visa/work permit situation between Gobrassanya and Katyapura. Laguna - Artana is another important missing link that I have thought about filling in on more than one occasion.

I thought both the North Coast Line & South Coast Line should feed into (West Marapura/Sugar Valley) - (Marapura International Airport) - Marapura - (Khaiwoon West) - Khaiwoon Central [not curved to a continuous loop around the country, not all trains would stop at all stations]. It makes sense to me to retain the inland Marapura District alignment for HSR, through the Marapura Airport and Sugar Valley rather than the coast / Gorrawati for HSR (feel free to improve the alignment, the HSR link to Gorrawati can be removed). The coast line would realistically have been too congested/developed at the time of HSR construction, with the inland alignment more feasible. The Airport was also lacking a rail link and Sugar Valley was the largest city in the Marapura District without a rail link at the time of construction. Something like the stopping pattern below:

North Coast Line Express (1+ train per hour): Khaiwoon Central - Marapura - Kalabag / Laguna - Artuna - Gobras City - Havreg - (Kirimitu Meeting) - Ontaro - Gautig - Queensboro
North Coast Line Local (1+ train per hour): Khaiwoon Central - Khaiwoon West - Marapura - Marapura International Airport - Sugar Valley ... and then ... Bell Gardens - (New Town) - Kalabag ... or ... Bell Gardens - Ashoka - Laguna - (Some trains may continue to Gobras City and beyond from both branches)
South Coast Line Express (1+ train per hour): Khaiwoon Central - Marapura - Katyapura - Uchina - Ormeo - Puerto Geo - Kaisiriga - Carratta - Phailoon City - Quesagnais
South Coast Line Local (1+ train per hour): Khaiwoon Central - Khaiwoon West - Marapura - Marapura International Airport - West Marapura - Katyapura - (New Town) - Uchina - (Some trains may continue to Carratta making local stops)

Having both lines feed into Khaiwoon will help spread the benefits of HSR along both coasts and the interior, giving both Kalabag and Laguna direct trips to Khaiwoon. It would mean a train to from Khaiwoon to Marapura every 15 min. or better, making the best use of expensive infrastructure, and I really do think Khaiwoon would have a robust Gobrassanya commuter base like Hong Kong or Singapore today. Interstation would be similar to domestic service on HS1 in the UK (St. Pancras - Stratford International - Ebbsfleet International - Ashford International). And really, all lines should have some different levels of service, with local stations making HSR more accessible outside of big cities and a few more suburban stations outside Gobras City and other major metro areas.

Additional non-Khaiwoon GoHSR services could include (in addition to lines that continue on to legacy tracks):

Gobras City - Artana - Kalabag / Laguna - Marapura via North Coast Line: additional local & express service that does not continue to Khaiwoon
Gobras City - Quesagnais via Carrata: Gobras City - Worldport - Sterbing - Carratta - Phailoon City - (Hotingi/Neglide) - Quesagnais
Gobras City - Sterbing High Speed Commuter Line: Gobras City - Worldport - Splanndith - Sterbing
Gobras City - Kirimitu Meeting High Speed Commuter Line: Gobras City - District Line Rd - Aldeness - Kalainee - Havreg - Villanelle - Kirimitu Meeting
Havreg - Worldport High Speed Connector: Worldport - District Line Rd - Aldeness - Kalainee - Havreg
Gobras City - Marapura via South Coast Line: Gobras City - Worldport - Sterbing - Carratta - Kaisiriga - Puerto Geo - Ormeo - Uchina - Katyapura - Marapura
Queensboro - Marapura via South Coast Line: Queensboro - Gautig - Ontaro - (Kazuya South) - (Kirimitu Meeting) - Havreg - Worldport - Sterbing - Carratta - Kaisiriga - Puerto Geo - Ormeo - Uchina - Katyapura - Marapura
Gobras City - Quesagnais via North Coast Line (not yet mapped): Gobras City - District Line Rd - Havreg - (Kirimitu Meeting) - (Kazuya South) - Ontaro - Ontaro Airport - Eugène-Embrun - Arcois-Est - Quesagnais
Queensboro - Colquitam - Mougnon: Continuation of HSR trainsets via medium speed rail to poorly connected region of the country (not yet mapped)

--Dono87 (unsigned)

In conclusion, I think it means something like this: for every (long) stretch of GoHSR track one express service and one local service, with at least 1 train every hour (and extra trains possible in rush hour). For the Marapura - Khaiwoon stretch this results in some more trains per hour as different lines come together, and around Gobras City the same can happen. In my opinion this is the best way of making use of the expensive infrastructure HSR lines are, and that's exactly what's happening to real world HSR lines too. As for the high speed commuter lines you mention, I think that's a good idea too, but I'd market them as part of the intercity train network, operated by normal intercity trains that just happen to make use of HSR tracks but at the lower speed of 200 km/u. That's how we're using the overcapacity on our HSR lines in Belgium for example, and also the Dutch do it that way with their InterCity Direct.

As for the Worldport: the reason I mapped that new alignment is because the area was and is still not developed, so there actually was enough place for the alignment without problems of going through populated areas. I think that if in the real world someone would create a long distance HSR (to Carratta in this case) and have such an opportunity to connect their largest airport to it with only having to go through farmland, they'd certainly do that. The reason I connected it to the western main line to Chanton was because this would actually have less impact on protesting citizens as otherwise the line through Tissoons would need a significant upgrade, while now it only had to go through farmland in a cutting (to minimize visual impact). Also, the western rail line itself was already capacious and provides extra connection possibilities. And the reason I used those large curves is because it actually fitted better in its surroundings than with smaller curves. I also spoke to Chazeltine who is mapping in that area and he agreed to this.

For the line to Quesagnais, I was also thinking that in the longer term a cross-mountain HSR would make sense. However this is really expensive infrastructure so I'd make only one connection towards Queensboro, because then it would still connect passengers to Ontaro via a detour, and at the same time connecting to Queensboro. Since it's a HSR that significant detour would probably still be shorter than a direct classical rail line, so even then it's a timesaver, and passengers to Gobras City can still use the existing connection via Carratta. A real world example: the TGV Brussels - Paris - Strasbourg is significantly faster than its intercity predecessor, even with a detour of several hundreds of kilometers.

But in general, I think it might be useful if someone could draw the service pattern, so we can discuss better which stations and lines should be included?

Squizie3 (talk) 01:10, 1 June 2019 (CEST)

Thanks for the feedback - Squizie3, Dono87 - would you be able to do a rough sketch of what you are both proposing? I find it much easier to understand If I look at it. Also km of HSR per km^2 would be a useful metric to compare to real world! /wangi (talk) 01:15, 1 June 2019 (CEST)

I've moved this to a dedicated sub-page since it's probably a much bigger discussion, which we need to have with interested folk first and then reach out to regular Gobrassanya mappers. I have also updated the map at the top of the page to better show the current HSR situation - green is GoHSR, those only tagged as "highspeed=yes" are pink, those only tagged as "name=GoHSR" are orange. /wangi (talk)

DO you think though if it is possible to have another HSR line to neighbouring Alora?--Happy mapping and God bleses you, ZK (talk) 03:35, 1 June 2019 (CEST)

I think there are actually two: one from Queensboro along the northern coast, and one from Kaisiriga along the southern coast, tagged as HSR Alora / Alora HSR. Where do you want another one?

Squizie3 (talk) 04:30, 1 June 2019 (CEST)

File:Gohsr-current 20190601-Prop New1.png

The current HSR network is around 1925 km, including 50km Artana-Laguna missing link and 50km in Alora between Phailoon City and Carratta, as there is unlikely to be a stop in Alora so Alora wouldn't be maintaining it.

At 122,500 sqkm, that means Gobrassanya's HSR density is around 16 km per 1,000 sqkm or 40% ahead of current world-leader South Korea. The comparison on a population basis is better at 3.8-6.4 km per 100,000 people, based on my population estimate of 30-50 million, squarely in line with most of Europe and behind Spain, Sweden and Finland. link

In comparison to the real world, having 2 lines from Gobras City to Marapura via Kalabag/Laguna, a full HSR line on the South Coast when there is no dominant city nor direct link to the capital, and some of the mountainous stretches to Queensboro or Quesagnais would not have been prioritized. But given Gobrassanya's willingness to spend on infrastructure, the right politics could have motivated a desire to link all of the country's districts to the capital with HSR.

To that end, the mountainous 160km link from Quesagnais to Ontaro or the 120km link from Quesagnais to Queensboro as shown in the proposed map should probably be downgraded to conventional speed rail, although the missing link from Artana to Laguna should be filled in (if 2 alignments are retained between Artana and Marapura, a decision that could probably be revisited).

--Dono87 (talk) 15:44, 1 June 2019 (CEST)

Update: all leftover tagging errors concerning the GoHSR are now fixed. All tracks are now properly tagged with highspeed=yes and name=GoHSR or name=Alora HSR. I also converted the GoHSR branch to Margenson Airport into a normal rail line and changed the alignment a bit. The coastal line at Marapura is also a normal rail line now, though we should still see what to do with the alignment but I guess that's something we can discuss in it's proper section. Lastly, the GoHSR line between Fort Massaer and Laguna we were discussing is now added too. If I'm not wrong, all these changes had a consensus, so we can now figure out the next step.

File:GoHSR proposal 1.png

First proposal

You can see my proposal on the map. For the express HSR services (the real HSR) I propose following routes:

Grand Lake - Carratta - Gobras City - Laguna - Khaiwoon line
Santa Carlina (Alora) - Queensboro - Gobras City - Laguna - Khaiwoon line
Gobras City - Carratta - south coast - Khaiwoon line
Alora south coast - Kaisiriga line (operated by Alora HSR)

But to see if that's feasible, we need to figure out some other things first:

What to do with border crossings

There are 3 international HSR services possible: to Khaiwoon, to Alora's north coast and to Alora's south coast. Depending on the relation Gobrassanya has to Alora and Khaiwoon this can mean a lot for the possible service patterns and necessary station facilities. If for example airport style passenger screening is required to enter the other country, this means all stations served by the cross border train in either one country, the other country or both countries need to have those expensive facilities. Also, domestic travel on an international train will be unlikely since passengers would have to go through security and immigration, which is time-consuming and not convenient for the passengers. So if this is the case, international trains will only stop in the really large stations and will need to be operated on top of the proposed domestic GoHSR routes since they can't take domestic travellers.

More specifically: for Khaiwoon I don't see much problems. If immigration etc. is necessary for travel between Khaiwoon and Gobrassanya, both Khaiwoon Central and West could simply have those facilities where passengers can go through Gobrassanya and Khaiwoon immigration, following the same principle as the Hong Kong HSR to mainland China. Stations in Gobrassanya won't need those facilities then, just like if there was free movement of people and goods. But for Alora more problems could arise. If immigration etc. is necessary this would mean all stations served by the proposed north coast cross border train would need extra tracks and facilities, and they'd need to be operate as a separate service terminating in Gobras City with only one or two intermediary stops in Queensboro and Ontaro, while domestic service on the north coast line would still be needed as proposed. Another option would be to have the same system as for Khaiwoon, with immigration etc. all happening in Santa Carlina and Monterey, but this requires a strong coordination between the two countries. For the southern Alora line immigration checks would mean trains probably would have to end in Kaisiriga where passengers need to go through immigration before connecting to other GoHSR trains to Gobras City or Khaiwoon. Another option is in stead of going to Kaisiriga, going north to Carratta and Gobras City, where the latter two have immigration facilities and provide connections to other GoHSR trains. So I think we need to figure these border problems first.

Remove the GoHSR line through Kalabag or not

To me, it seems indeed a bit optimistic to have two lines running between Fort Massaer and Bell Gardens. I consider 2 possibilities:

1. The GoHSR line through Kalabag was built first in the beginnings of the HSR era, and back then the cost and time savings of the slightly shorter route to connect the Marapura-Khaiwoon region with Gobras City was considered more important than to connect Laguna to the network. More recently the GoHSR network in the country got expanded a lot, and it was deemed necessary to also include a GoHSR link to Laguna as it is quite a large city. This results in the two lines we know today. Real world example could be the planned HSR to Dijon in France, only about 60 km away from the existing HSR line.

2. The GoHSR line through Kalabag was never built and in stead it was routed through Laguna from the beginning. The conventional rail line to Kalabag handles intercity trains to the capital.

I personally don't care which option is chosen. For the service patterns this also doesn't cause problems, as the only change would be that more trains will travel through Laguna.

Possible extension from Quesagnais

I suggest to extend the HSR from Quesagnais to Queensboro in the future, possibly on a slightly lower speed track of 200 or 250 kph. I think this would be a realistic addition given there is no historical rail line between these two cities. When the government finally decides to invest in this rail link, they do it in such a way that both regional trains and GoHSR trains all can use the tracks simultainously, but also at current higher railway standards than in the past. By creating this new HSR, regional trains from Quesagnais can branch of to Colquitam for example, while GoHSR trains can be extended to Queensboro where connections are possible to Alora, Gautig and Ontaro. In the Eugène-Embrun valley, I'd keep the existing rail line and possibly upgrading some sections to allow for about 140-160 kph speed as a conventional rail line, but nothing more. Given there is already a railway line here, the government would be pushed more towards investing in areas without one since there it makes more difference.

For the local HSR services, I consider several options. Throughout the country there are a lot of smaller places not deserving a HSR line on their own, although they could get a lot of benefits if some form of faster train would serve them. Some of these places have luck and happen to lay on a GoHSR line where services could make an intermediate stop, while others don't (see map). To serve most of those places, regardless if they lay next to a HSR or not, I think we could look at two possible solutions. A first one is to connect them with intercity trains capable of running at 200 kph on HSR stretches, and continuing at slower speeds on conventional tracks. This kind of trains could be using HSR lines with their local stops only, or they can continue to somewhat larger places which happen not to have a HSR line passing by. Another option is to run those local services with real high speed trains capable of 250, 300 or 320 kph, also with the same possibility of continuing on conventional tracks to other places not on the HSR line. I think both options should best be used together, as it really depends on individual connections if one or another would work best. For example, the local HSR option is probably best on longer HSR distances, such as for example a possible connection Gobras City (HSR) - north-western coast local (HSR) - Colquitam (non-HSR) - Mougnon (non-HSR), whereas on shorter distances for example a connection Gobras City (non-HSR) - Gatetown (non-HSR) - Artana (HSR) - Laguna (HSR) - Ashaloa (non-HSR) - ... - Marapura could work well with 200 kph intercity trains. But what's most important: I think we should not stick to HSR tracks when figuring out the local services running to the local HSR stops, and we also shouldn't be limited to full-blown HSR trains. But because this creates an enormous amount of possible connections, I think we might be better of by just not mapping the route relations for these intercity/localHSR trains and in stead only doing that for the express services. Squizie3 (talk) 06:36, 2 June 2019 (CEST)

A few quick takes:

The service=main tagging was for the 'Histor style' rendering, which more clearly differentiates between high-speed/main service in red and local lines in green
I am coming around to the removal of the HSR line through Kalabag as an unaffordable/unrealistic luxury. The Kalabag shortcut wouldn't save much time, maybe 10 min. max savings on a 2-hour trip from Gobras City to Marapura. This wouldn't be worth the incremental time savings and lost connectivity at Laguna. HSR trainsets should serve Kalabag on the conventional line though, with an added track connection near Bell Gardens. Note that France has shelved or cancelled plans to build parallel, bypass lines like Paris - Amiens - Calais or Paris - Clermont-Ferrand - Lyon
Removal of the Kalabag shortcut results in a network length around 1770 km. So only 14.4km per k sqkm, a little bit closer to South Korea but still 30% higher.
For this reason, I think further extensions, like a line west from Quesagnais that would have to go through Alora and back again, maybe with tunnels, should remain on the drawing board. But Gobrassanya has a lot of conventional speed rail connections that have yet to be mapped, in Volantia, Eugène-Embrun-Ontaro, Fallsington-Notamton
It could make sense to stop Alora trains at the closest border cities - Queensboro & Kaisiriga instad of Gobras City - for connecting trains and intermediate destinations. Realistically, Gobras City is far enough away, with such indirect geography, that most Aloran travelers bound there from farther afield would likely be on a plane.
If the HSR alignment is only 2 tracks, mixing speeds will hamper capacity. Everything should ideally be moving at the same top speed, with HSR trains continuing at slower speeds on conventional tracks.
Nice map.
Not all trains need to continue to Khaiwoon, especially ones coming from the far west
Some cities like Pemsbrook or Fruhlen are too far from the HSR network, and should make do with good conventional service.
A service pattern using the west-side of the Worldport wye is missing
It looks like Marapura Airport should be on both the North Coast & South Coast lines

--Dono87 (talk) 11:55, 2 June 2019 (CEST)

Thanks for the feedback! I'll react to every bullet, and made an updated map added below.

Since the only tracks with service=main where your GoHSR alignments near Marapura, I thought it was a mistake since the rest of the network has usage=main tagging instead, and that's also the correct OSM tag for it. But if we want the HSR lines to show on Histor style we might add service=main to the entire HSR network. Or we could modify the outdated Histor style...
If everyone else also agrees to remove the line to Kalabag, I'd be happy to do that and create a realistic connection between the GoHSR and the conventional railway line at Keelawarra and Fort Massaer.
The extension to Queensboro could also be a higher standard conventional railway line, newly built in recent years as there was no historical conventional rail line in place. This line would be built for all types of trains, just at more modern standards but without going high speed. The alignment would follow the valley where also the A7/A20 is situated, so the use of tunnels won't be too high, only one under the pass could be usefull. Once in the Colquitam valley, it could join the older (yet to be mapped) conventional railway line between Colquitam and Qeensboro. Also, it doesn't need to go through Alora or so. But by making such a modern moderate speed railway line the traffic demand on this lacking connection could be fulfilled. It then only happens to accomodate a HSR train service but not operating at full speed, alongside regional and possibly local rail. Other lines in Volantia that need to be mapped yet would be older conventional rail lines, since they can follow valleys without passing mountain passes and are therefore more likely to exist way longer.
For the international trains, I think we can assume that border facilities in stations are necessary for both Khaiwoon and Alora? I agree to end Alora HSR operated trains at Kaisiriga and Queensboro, which will be fitted with separate international platforms. However I think we should also have a limited amount of trains travelling further to Gobras City. Just like the recent extension of the Eurostar to Rotterdam and Amsterdam which runs three times a day on a 600 km route, whilst the full route from Santa Carlina to Gobras City is not much longer at 700 km (and is much shorter than the also three times a day TGV Paris - Barcelona at 1000 km). This proves there is a real-world market for long distance HSR. In that case Ontaro and Gobras City would also have one international platform for those trains, but others like Gautig or Havreg won't, just like in real-world my home town has no Eurostar stop while other HSR services do. In case of the Alora HSR southern coast line, I think it is possible to have more trains running to Gobras City since distances are shorter. I'd propose to have one Alora HSR train every two hours to go directly to Carratta and Gobras City, while every other two hours trains go to Kaisiriga. Less trains to Gobras City is also possible, causing more trains to go to Kaisiriga. So for this line Kaisiriga and Carratta (and Gobras City) will all need an international platform.
I know mixing speeds eats capacity, but for example in the Netherlands their HSR tracks are run by 1 high speed train and 5 (!) intercity trains per hour. On longer distances this is certainly not possible anymore, but what I meant with the proposal is that in some occasions in Gobrassanya we shouldn't limit intercity trains to not use HSR tracks. Sure, we first have to look what HSR services need to use tracks but most likely on some parts of the GoHSR network there will be room for some lower speed intercity trains to fill in gaps. I don't think we should try to make route relations for them, just knowing they can exist on the GoHSR network is enough.
Thanks for the compliment. I have updated the map based on new insights, so have a look at it.
We can limit one of the two north coast lines to Marapura only, and doing that we clear up space for extra local HSR trains to Khaiwoon. However, I'd be perfectly fine with all lines continuing to Khaiwoon as it's not really costly to extend these services, while it gives Khaiwoon a 30 minute frequency service to Gobras City.
Yes, I now some cities are far away from the network. I guess I just picked all somehow larger cities, but that not necessarily means they have to get trains running on HSR tracks because indeed, sometimes no decent connection can be made. It was just to show there are other cities of equal importance not laying on the HSR network too.
I think a connection to the Worldport over the western Y is perfect for a local HSR coming from Havreg or further (but I didn't draw local HSR services on the map yet) or for intercity trains from Fallsington/Aurora Beach/Aldeness etc. coming from conventional tracks and only joining the HSR tracks at District Line to reach the airport. However, not everyone likes the current alignment of the Y so this might not be a possibility if most users insist on removing it.
Indeed, Marapura airport was meant to be on both lines, I just corrected that too on the map.

So, have a look at the map, it shows my updated proposal. Squizie3 (talk) 00:05, 3 June 2019 (CEST)

File:GoHSR proposal 2.png

Second proposal

I think we can assume visa free travel between the three states, we can confirm that with indyroads for Alora. I think we could still have a simpler service pattern. The orange here (Havreg - Gobras City - Laguna) would also mop up the local stops in the Gobras City area - a stopping HSR service.

File:Gohsr-proposal-2.jpg

Proposal wangi 2

/wangi (talk) 00:58, 3 June 2019 (CEST)

I'm not sure about that visa free travel in the case of Alora... If you look at the present road border crossings, everything is quite heavily fenced off and has customs etc. in place. The A7 even has a special transportation corridor to not have to go through border crossings twice. All of these are signs that free travel is not the case. If we'd assume free travel, we'd have to remove all those large border crossings and integrate both countries much more on a lot of places along the border. For Khaiwoon, I think free travel is much more likely, and even without there is no problem.

As for your service pattern: I think it'd be better to just delete the line through Kalabag altogether. And besides that, my proposal has only 3 lines for the real domestic HSR across the country, so I don't think that's not simple enough. In real world it's also quite unlikely to limit number of services if the physical network has multiple branches and local stops. And that's perfectly normal, as you want to make best use of the infrastructure there is, so you will probably end up with a bunch of services servicing different parts of the country, although some could have a low frequency. I absolutely don't think simplifying the network till it's bare minimum is a good idea, as it's not realistic. As for your local HSR line: I think the entire north coast could benefit from a local HSR, which after Queensboro continues to Colquitam etc. At the other side the local HSR could branch off south of Fort Massaer, take the conventional rail line to Kalabag, and then rejoin at Bell Gardens for local HSR service through Marapura airport etc. untill Khaiwoon. At the south coast a local service between Carratta and Khaiwoon could do the job. Places like Sterbing could get a Gobras City - Worldport - Splanndith - Sterbing intercity train on HSR tracks, after which the train continues on conventional rail lines to the Valkaria valley. But this kind of intercity trains don't have to be specified for now I think.

So in general I'd propose the following:

my 3 express GoHSR services
depending on the border issues there might be some additional international Alora HSR trains running at low frequency
3 local HSR services (I'd split the north coast line in two parts):
- one for the north western coast between Gobras City and Colquitam or even Mougnon
- one for the north eastern coast between Worldport, Gobras City, Kalabag and Khaiwoon
- one for the southern coast between Carratta and Khaiwoon

Squizie3 (talk) 01:50, 3 June 2019 (CEST)

Feel free to message Indyroads to clarify, but I think it is best to simply to focus on Gobrassanya & Khaiwoon service just now. Can you do a simple map, without stops, without local stops, and using the same colours as mine to show your proposal? I really do think spur to Laguna makes sense, with the main - original - line to Khaiwoon routing through the easier and direct terrain around Kalabag. /wangi (talk) 02:01, 3 June 2019 (CEST) Maybe it wasn't clear when I started the page - I think we have to prioritise the route decisions. So here let's identify the core HSR routes. Later we can expand to the next level of detail - regional, stopping, extensions out to regular rail. /wangi (talk) 02:17, 3 June 2019 (CEST)

So here it is! Three lines, all having one express and one local service, so 6 in total, all operating once per hour. With this proposal, almost all lines have 2 trains per hour, and the GoHSR between Marapura and Khaiwoon operates every 15 minutes. I don't think a better balanced service pattern is possible. I'd remove the line through Kalabag in favor of the line through Laguna, because it's the largest city in between Gobras City and Khaiwoon. When the government had to build a line between Khaiwoon/Marapura and Gobras City, they'd probably not miss out such an important city. It's not that it has to go through a mountain range or so. In fact, if you look closely to the map this line actually follows a valley, whereas the GoHSR line (and highway and conventional railway line) to Kalabag cross several valleys. As for the local lines, they now serve all stretches with a lot of local stops, so they are much needed. But in general, I think we could go with these routes. Squizie3 (talk) 03:25, 3 June 2019 (CEST)

File:GoHSR proposal 2 with local GoHSR.png

Proposed routes

I second Squizie's map & alignments, removing the HSR line through Kalabag.

It may seem disingenuous, but at high speeds (200kmph avg.), the line through Laguna only adds 10 minutes versus the line through Kalabag. The line through Laguna would surely have been first built given it's size and importance vs. Kalabag.

Gobrassanya already has 30% more km of HSR per km2 than world-leader Korea, even after removing this line, so it is more realistic. link

Given domestic politics, this kind of duplicate infrastructure would likely have de-prioritized, versus establishing new connections like those proposed by Squizie in Volantia. See France's postponement / cancelling of Paris-Amiens-Calais or Paris-Orleans-Clermont-Ferrand-Lyon duplicate lines.

--Dono87 (talk) 11:40, 3 June 2019 (CEST)

Tagging

Ok, lets go for it. I've just done a bit of tidy up around Marapura to fix up mistagged tunnels, add landuse and remove the dedicated HSR rails on the coastal route. I've also removed the HSR route via Kalabag, merging it onto the normal rails. I'm going to make a start on route relations - how do we want to coordinate that? We're going to need refs (e.g. HSR2, HSR2-L), names, ... owners /wangi (talk)

As a simple start I've created a route relation for the local service WorldPort to Khaiwoon: r143196. Tags are:

Tag	Value
colour	blue
from	Gobras WorldPort
name	GoHSR2: WorldPort > Khaiwoon (local)
network	GoHSR
operator	Gobrassanya High Speed Railway
public_transport:version	2
ref	GOHSR2-L-SE
route	train
to	Khaiwoon Central
type	route

Went for GOHSR<n>-<X|L>-<direction> for the ref tag. /wangi (talk) 02:11, 4 June 2019 (CEST)

Just a note that the suggestion for the World Port - Marapura local line was for it to rejoin the dedicated HSR tracks near here. Odawalla could be moved or at the very least rescaled. Ebbsfleet International is a good example of HSR trains rejoining the local track at a station.

--Dono87 (talk) 11:29, 4 June 2019 (CEST)

I just did that. I merged the town of Odawalla into the southern part of nearby Keelawarra, so the latter one grew slightly now. Where Odawalla used to be I added a connection between the GoHSR and conventional rail line. The relation of the GoHSR service is also updated now. Squizie3 (talk) 19:06, 4 June 2019 (CEST)

I have some extra tags in mind, like a 'via' tag to differentiate better between routes, and the two OGF: tags for rendering in AustinHuangs public transport viewer. Also, the operator could be Gobrassanya National Rail, just like the rest of the rail network. Or we can assume Gobrassanya High Speed Rail is a subdivision of it and make that the official operator. (But I'd drop the 'way' to have naming more closely related to Gobrassanya National Rail.) But the biggest suggestion I'd make is to use another naming scheme (and hence refs). I'd take names which would be directly marketable to the passengers as well, so I propose to use 'GoHSR Express' and 'GoHSR Regional', along with the addition of a name per line. The ones I have in mind are: GoHSR Express North Coast line, GoHSR Regional North-West Coast line, GoHSR Express Mountain line, GoHSR Regional North-East Coast line, GoHSR Express South Coast line and GoHSR Regional South Coast line. They all somehow describe which parts of the country are served. In case of the route relations the direction should be added between brackets, but in the rout_master relation this will be dropped. Refs then will also change to something like GoHSR<E|R>-<abbraviation of line name>-<E|W>, with East and West being enough as directions since all trains run more or less in an east-west direction. Besides that, maybe we should list which services stop at which stations, so we can include that into the relations as well. But first, here's an example of the taggings:

Tag	Value first example	Value second example
from	Gobras City	Carratta
to	Khaiwoon Central	Khaiwoon Central
via	Carratta
name	GoHSR Express: South Coast line (Gobras City - Khaiwoon Central)	GoHSR Regional: South Coast line (Carratta - Khaiwoon Central)
ref	GoHSRE-SC-E	GoHSRR-SC-E
colour	green	green
OGF:opacity	0.5	0.5
OGF:width	5	3
network	GoHSR	GoHSR
operator	Gobrassanya National Rail or Gobrassanya High Speed Rail	Gobrassanya National Rail or Gobrassanya High Speed Rail
public_transport:version	2	2
route	train	train
type	route	route

Update: I updated the tags of the experimental route relation to this proposed tagging scheme to see if it works well. Squizie3 (talk) 04:12, 4 June 2019 (CEST)

Marapura (and the regional airport)

link

File:Gobrassanya-hsr-marapura.jpg

HSR around Marapura

We need to sort out the rails in Maprapura. Currently north bound there are two options, which is not realistic. /wangi (talk)

For this I suggest talking it out with Isleno; it is his work and I doubt he wants it messed up without his permission or anything. --Happy mapping and God bleses you, ZK (talk) 03:24, 1 June 2019 (CEST)

Good point, although in this area it is indyroads and histor I think. The routes marked in orange are the most recent, added by Dono87 in 2017. /wangi (talk) 03:36, 1 June 2019 (CEST)

Well, it was created by Isleno. I think these two indyroads and histor came later and devlop it. Just realised there is a metro system in Marapura as well; not so realistic however, Isleno will not agree to it. --Happy mapping and God bleses you, ZK (talk) 04:07, 1 June 2019 (CEST)

My suggestion: I thought of the branching of the orange-green lines probably near the south. The one going westwards can go through surrley instead of going northwards. The rail along the shore can be downgraded to normal national rail; these places do not seem worthy of stopping over by a high-speed rail service. Can you also show the current stations in the area?--Happy mapping and God bleses you, ZK (talk) 03:33, 1 June 2019 (CEST)

sure /wangi (talk)

I think just keeping the orange lines where they are is perfectly fine, since it makes both lines passing through Marapura airport (serving as a 'local' HSR stop), and I think that's the reason Dono87 mapped it that way. The line at the shore is probably more of a leftover when those orange lines did not exist yet, and could now easily be converted to normal rail by deleting the GoHSR and highspeed tags. And Surley would be better of with a subway stop and absolutely doesn't need a HSR stop in my opinion.

Squizie3 (talk) 04:02, 1 June 2019 (CEST)

I am not so sure about the demands of the airport. People will rather take a train to Khaiwoon and take a plane there. A possible new central station can be around here: https://opengeofiction.net/#map=15/18.7196/89.006. See below for a proposed new alignment of the HSR (in red) in southern Marapura.--Happy mapping and God bleses you, ZK (talk) 04:07, 1 June 2019 (CEST)

File:New Marapura alignment south.png

By the way I am not all out to redo the whole thing in Marapura; I still want to keep the line that goes up north. I feel that for the Marpura airport there can be an extra local rail station or something to serve it since it is more likely used for domestic flights, rather than another hsr service.--Happy mapping and God bleses you, ZK (talk) 04:15, 1 June 2019 (CEST)

File:New Marapura alignment north.png

I think this situation is worse than the current one, since the Marapura station is now conveniently located right in the city centre, and that's almost always the most ideal spot for a railway station since there you reach most passengers and have most connections to other means of transport. And if you take that into account, you have to branch off north of Marapura and this results almost certainly in the current alignment. By branching of before the city centre of Marapura, you either need a station outside the centre or you need 2 stations and split up train frequency, both options are worse than the current situation with one single station in the city centre served by the two branches. So that's why I think the current alignment is best in all aspects.

Squizie3 (talk) 04:27, 1 June 2019 (CEST)

Hmm well, what I aimed for is to cut down the distance for the west bound HSR from Khaiwoon. For this new draft, I thought of making a reliagnment of the airport station so that the rail does not need to cut under the runways, plus a new realigned central station for a shorter west bound HSR. The current station's location does not seem to have any new transportation hubs, and another location may fit.

If the airport demand isn't really high though, I think it is not worth to stop at the airport; let local rails serve it, maybe like an additional line from a possible Patralwan station (see green alignment)? Though I doubt this can be option worth exploraing at the moment.--Happy mapping and God bleses you, ZK (talk) 15:21, 1 June 2019 (CEST)

File:New Marapura alignment draft2.png

File:Gobrassanya-hsr-marapura 20190601 Prop New1.png

The beauty of high speeds is that the detour to Marapura Airport doesn't add much time to trips, but adds a lot of connectivity for what is probably the same or less construction costs. If local HSR trains average 150kmph, to allow for stops, travel time from West Marapura station to the Khaiwoon line would be 26 minutes via the current alignment and 20 minutes via your map, which requires a new station in Marapura and more urban tunnels (same length of linear rail construction) for only 5-6 minutes of savings (and less for express trains). This is still faster than car travel before congestion into central Marapura, not to mention the time savings vs a ferry to Khaiwoon.

I would challenge the notion that Marapura Airport wouldn't be significant draw. It certainly wouldn't have intercontinental flights like Khaiwoon, but would be a good secondary airport for regional and discount carriers and being accessible by HSR would extend its draw across neighboring districts. Khaiwoon's airport isn't even a one-seat subway ride from Khaiwoon Central, and depending on border crossings, would be over an hour of travel time further than Marapura Airport for most of the Marapura District. On the other hand, people from Khaiwoon West probably have shorter trips to Marapura Airport via HSR than Khaiwoon Airport via their own subway, so Marapura Airport would be able to draw passengers from Khaiwoon as well.

Marapura Central Station has all of the infrastructure that you would want from a central station, local trains, ferries, a bus station, not to mention business and government amenities, and HSR should definitely stop there. Not to mention, HSR is the express shuttle from Marapura to its own airport as well. (The subway in Marapura should be removed as well. Buses are underrated in OGF.)

As a realistic explanation of how we got here, I would propose the following, similar to the progressive opening of HS1 in the UK:

Phase 1: GoHSR built from Gobras City to Gorrawati via new alignment, then followed the conventional speed lines to Marapura via the coast, while looking for funding and a new alignment
Phase 2: New alignment coupled with South Coast GoHSR opens sometime later, speeding up trips for those from the North Coast and completing the connection to Khaiwoon for those from the South Coast. The Coast Line to Gorrawati reverts back to only conventional speed service.

--Dono87 (talk) 16:30, 1 June 2019 (CEST)

I completely agree with your vision Dono87. By the way, I think the short stretch between the HSR and the coast line should be kept (but remove GoHSR tagging) as it's clearly a leftover from phase 1, which is only served in case of emergencies or so. Just like the Highspeed 1 in the UK, where the connection to Waterloo is still in place. As for the coast line itself: this would become a 4 track line from Marapura to Gorrawati which is great because then it's possible to add more local commuter stops to the line while not disturbing longer distance trains. I think we also should consider extending the 2 extra tracks towards the rail triangle at Loonawarra, to get a more realistic reason to why there are 4 tracks down that line. Squizie3 (talk) 17:14, 1 June 2019 (CEST)

Small update: I already removed the GoHSR and highspeed tagging from the coast line, since absolutely no one advocated towards keeping this line a HSR in their plans. We should still figure out what to do with the coast line itself probably, because I did not change any of the connections so it's physically still connected directly to the GoHSR network and poorly connected to the mainline network, and I think we should reverse that.

Just a note: I also fixed some other tagging issues in the Marapura region. I changed the service=main to the proper usage=main tags, and also added GoHSR and highspeed tags to some stretches where only one of the two parallel tracks had those. (I also did that for the tracks going into Khaiwoon, but I guess anyone would agree to this.) Squizie3 (talk) 17:32, 1 June 2019 (CEST)

I've completed what you started - removed the dedicated HSR rails on the coast and have joined it all up. /wangi (talk) 01:19, 4 June 2019 (CEST)

Ok, so keep the HSR connected to the airport? OK. I am thinking there can be some sort of Khaiwoon-Marapura Airport Express service or shuttle. Still I want the HSR lines to be realigned so that it does not go under the runway and keep the distance short without too many curves. The current westwards one can go to the central station instead. We can probably build a local rail station to the airport as well.--Happy mapping and God bleses you, ZK (talk) 07:37, 4 June 2019 (CEST)

The concern of HSR under a runway is unfounded. There are plenty of real-world examples:

London link
Paris link
Amsterdam link
Brussels link

I would leave the current alignment as-is, with both branches feeding into Marapura Airport to support decent frequencies between Marapura's city center and it's airport (also easier to get from West Marapura or Katyapura to the airport).

--Dono87 (talk) 11:29, 4 June 2019 (CEST)

Alright then, then we need a bigger HSR station at the airport. Think of a possible shuttle khaiwoon-airport service.--Happy mapping and God bleses you, ZK (talk) 12:11, 4 June 2019 (CEST)

I agree that some kind of extra shuttle service at 30 minute interval could be usefull to increase frequency between Marapura and it's airport to once every 15 minutes. But I don't think it needs to continue to Khaiwoon, as for Khaiwoon a 30 minute frequency to Marapura Airport is enough and the 15 minute frequency between Marapura itself and Khaiwoon is also great. In stead, we could imagine 2 conventional trains from the Gobrassanya South Coast to Marapura to be extended to the airport. So to accomodate this, I just enlarged the Marapura Airport station so it has a one ending spur with platform in the middle for normal trains from Marapura to end here in the airport station once every 30 minutes. And I also added one extra track on every side with a platform to create 2 platform-free tracks for non-stopping GoHSR Express trains to run through the station at increased speed. The latter is something we should do on all GoHSR stations which aren't express GoHSR stops on the entire network, because otherwise Express services would have to slow down for safety. Squizie3 (talk) 19:27, 4 June 2019 (CEST)

I've started work on putting the HSR track to the north of the airport. For a regional/secondary airport it's not realistic the HSR would take on the extra $$$$ to blow a tunnel under the runways. I've done it up to the junction where the two HSR routes diverge. That includes the railway landuse, embankments, bridges/tunnels. In the future we need to consider how well rails are mapped - a rail blasted on to the existing well mapped content is not well mapped... I plan to consider a linked station for airport use but happy for someone else to take that on. /wangi (talk) 04:13, 7 June 2019 (CEST)

Yeah I was thinking it is unrealistic for the tracks to go under the runway due to possible high costs. I feel that the new airport station, if realigned, can have a airport transport hub as well, a bus station and ~~a local rail link~~, plus a shuttle subway (smth like JFK Skytrain) to the city itself. Sadly I cannot map there at the moment, but I can give suggestions for improvements.--Happy mapping and God bleses you, ZK (talk) 05:36, 7 June 2019 (CEST)

All right, lookign closely on the map again, I thought of proposing such in the screenshot given below:

File:Screenshot (350).png

By the way, the skytrain alignment is just a sketch (and may undergo further studies, so anyone can give further suggestions). If there is a transport hub for the airport, will it be feasible at the airport or at the HSR/rail station serving it? If at the rail station, there can be accompanying shuttle buses as well to alleviate possible overcrowdness on the skytrain, though not feasible, while placing at the airport there can still be congestion.--Happy mapping and God bleses you, ZK (talk) 05:54, 7 June 2019 (CEST)

By far the most realistic situation, for a regional airport, is for either:

A station on Byzantine St at the northeast extreme of the site, with walkways and/or shuttle bus to terminal; in fact the terminals could be closer
A shuttle bus from the Bassanara station

I would go for the second. /wangi (talk) 11:15, 7 June 2019 (CEST)

Copying these comments from the changeset:

"I am just asking: what's your plan with this new alignment? Because the previous one did already seem to be a good alignment which as a bonus served the airport as well. Now we lost that extra connectivity, which was inteded to be a GoHSR Regional stop. I also don't think Dono87 would be very happy with this change either, as he was also advocating for this to be kept in the OGF Gobrassanya Railways talk page under the Marapura section." -- Squizie3
"I concur, there are plenty of real-world examples of railways under airports (London, Paris, Amsterdam, Brussels), not always perpendicular to runways either. This is a significant loss in connectivity, which is one of the main reasons that Gobrassanya would have built HSR in the first place." -- dono87

Just because there are real-world examples, doesn't make it plausible in this situation. Running the tunnels under the runway would cost a massive amount of money, for a regional airport it really doesn't make sense. Especially given the proximity of the much larger K'woon airport. The real-world examples are major international hubs, moving significant numbers of passengers. But it's also worth noting that HSR2 in the UK isn't going via Heathrow either. For a secondary airport the link is adequate, it's much better than many airports. /wangi (talk) 21:50, 7 June 2019 (CEST)

Marapura politicians would have been advocating for an HSR link to better compete with Khaiwoon though. The HSR link would give people at Khaiwoon West a shorter trip to Marapura Airport via HSR than Khaiwoon Airport via subway, drawing passengers from Khaiwoon as well as boosting connectivity for the entire Marapura District. With this new alignment, there is no reason to even leave Khaiwoon.

If the quality of the mapping was that poor, it could have been improved rather than removed.

Note, HSR2 in the UK is one of the reasons I surprised at the massive station complex at Gobras City World Port, and think World Port could have been adequately served with the existing metros & a spur.

--Dono87 (talk) 23:38, 7 June 2019 (CEST)

Whatever it is, I still don't think it is worth the money to tunnel underneath runways. We don't have to make everything perfect; probably the local authorities lobbied for the HSR to go through the airport, but a compromise was made by building a station near it after there were not enough funds. If you like, you can build a metro line from central to that new station and then to the airport. The airport may be of significance but since it seems to serve more cheaper budget airlines it wouldnt really earn as much as Khaiwoon's or Gobras City's.--Happy mapping and God bleses you, ZK (talk) 09:10, 18 June 2019 (CEST)

I think we can close this one out - there is now a shuttle bus mapped between the nearby station and the airport. /wangi (talk) 12:22, 18 June 2019 (CEST)

Gobras City WorldPort

File:Gobrassanya-hsr-gobras-worldport.jpg

HSR around Gobras City WorldPort

From the discission at #High-speed railway routes we should further discuss the local Gobras City routings. /wangi (talk) 03:08, 1 June 2019 (CEST)

" I was a bit concerned though about the overly optimistic HSR alignments that appeared recently in and around Worldport. There is no need to design for such high speeds so close to a city center, where all trains are stopping so limited by the need to accelerate/decelerate, alignments are constrained and there are lots of neighbors to sue over property impacts or displacements, when the route through District Line Rd was more realistic. This is a good example of Gobrassanya needing to be designed with real-world constraints in mind... the ideal isn't always possible and plenty of major world airports are off the main rail line and making do with subways, spurs or other solutions (ATL / ORD / JFK / LAX / LHR / MAD / BCN / MUC)" -- Dono87

"As for the Worldport: the reason I mapped that new alignment is because the area was and is still not developed, so there actually was enough place for the alignment without problems of going through populated areas. I think that if in the real world someone would create a long distance HSR (to Carratta in this case) and have such an opportunity to connect their largest airport to it with only having to go through farmland, they'd certainly do that. The reason I connected it to the western main line to Chanton was because this would actually have less impact on protesting citizens as otherwise the line through Tissoons would need a significant upgrade, while now it only had to go through farmland in a cutting (to minimize visual impact). Also, the western rail line itself was already capacious and provides extra connection possibilities. And the reason I used those large curves is because it actually fitted better in its surroundings than with smaller curves. I also spoke to Chazeltine who is mapping in that area and he agreed to this." -- Squizie3

I'd just add to the mix that the previous alignment to the WorldPort was already a diversion - not HSR - from the mainline. It has also went through a few iterations of being accepted! My preference would be to keep the north side on the current, slower, alignment. /wangi (talk)

By moving the discussion to this page, won't we be limiting this conversation to us three who already have seen it? Maybe some short info on the main discussion page could help guiding more users to this subpage?

On topic: I don't completely get what you mean with north side on the current alignment? Also, I find that if you look at this map the railway alignments shown in green don't look overkill, I'd say even necessary since this forms part of the HSR route from Gobras City to Carratta. The old line to the airport has been kept a mostly at grade freight line in the past (I've seen some comments about it on a talk page where some bridges where again replaced with at grade crossings), so I don't think building out this line is a good idea, as it would in stead become something like the western main line to Chanton (more tracks, grade separation,...). In fact this creates another broad railway corridor through developed environment (Tissoons etc.), while not being able to really downgrade the other one. I think the alignment I mapped is a fairly well solution to overcome this by getting the HSR trains on the existing broad western main line and keeping the line through Tissoons as is, with an extra benefit of making a direct link Worldport - nortwestern coast. But maybe some changes to the Worldport - western mainline connection could eventually be made such as better integration by using some tunnelling or so. Besides that, I hope we could agree that it's a good addition that the Worldport is now on the HSR network so this can easily feed passengers from the entire country to the worldport's long haul flights.

Squizie3 (talk) 03:51, 1 June 2019 (CEST)

I just took a closer look to the old line, and to me it seems like it's possible to upgrade that line to a grade separated four track line, but this would mean a lot of the industrial spurs will cease to exist since they won't fit or won't be realistic anymore without more serious adjustments. I just don't like the idea of having to change that Tissoons railway line because I find it particularly realistic in it's current function. I also took a look to the recently mapped GoHSR line, and I think maybe I could make tunnels under Lhatvohg Fields, certainly at the transit village and maybe some more extra to preserve more of the green environment over there.

Squizie3 (talk) 05:18, 1 June 2019 (CEST)

Hi Squizie, I think wangi means the rail line through Tissoons when he talks about the north side of the current alignment. Before you added the HSR lines through Lhatvohg Fields, the airport was served by the metro 1 and 3 lines as well as an airport express train that ran from downtown to WorldPort and passed through Tissoons. So I think wangi wants to remove the HSR lines (which you added) between the east-west GOHSR line and the WorldPort station and have all HSR trains run from WorldPort to downtown using the rail line through Tissoons. Scheduling could be tricky (but this is part of the fun); the airport express rail line is double-tracked as far as Oziato Boulevard, then single-tracked until the arena. I'm fine with either your HSR route or the Tissoons route. The industrial spurs are there because at the time I mistakenly thought the rail line was a freight line that ran between Tissoons and the port area; but these spurs adds character to the area. Chazeltine (talk) 05:35, 1 June 2019 (CEST)

I see. But I think an upgrade to a 4 track railroad is necessary when all GoHSR trains, local trains, some intercity trains and freight trains will run on these tracks, which will led to some buildings alongside the railroad needing to be cut off or moved a bit and some of those now indeed nice looking spurs to be removed since it will simply not fit anymore. This is however a valuable option and if everyone else really wants the line running through Tissoons we'll probably do everything possible to make it fit as smooth as possible. But I'm personally not really a fan of the idea. Squizie3 (talk) 05:46, 1 June 2019 (CEST)

I think it really depends on what we think the history of the area is. I imagine that the area west of the A201 highway is against urbanization. But the beauty is that we can easily remap this area to tell a different story. Maybe they are still against urbanization, but also for green technologies and mass transit. Then the HSR line through Lhatvohg Fields makes a little more sense. Add a few windmills (where they won't be a danger to planes flying into the WorldPort) and that helps tell the story.
If we imagine that it's fiscally unfeasible to add more tracks to the Tissoons rail line, I think we could increase service by adding a new double track from WorldPort which follows the Birch Curves to Gobras Southwest Cross (GSWX). This route is mostly farmland and nature reserve, so I think it could work. A new track from the mainline takes demand off the metro 1 and 3 lines; but you could also consider including a Line 1 Express or Line 3 Express to move people through the metro to the airport more quickly if building new tracks to GSWX is not an option. Chazeltine (talk) 06:49, 1 June 2019 (CEST)

I think the biggest challenge in the areas around the Worldport are you need to look at them as very incomplete mapping. What you currently see really isn't what would be there. This is especially true to the E, N and S of the airport - would be much more developed. What we're terming the Tissons line was built as a loop from the mainline to allow airport service. There is no problem increasing the right of way on this. /wangi (talk) 00:29, 3 June 2019 (CEST)

Well, I thought the story was that this part of the city would stay rather undeveloped by policy measures. So I think it was the plan to stay quite undeveloped, and then it's not really a problem. We could as Chazeltine suggested increase the visibility of this strategy by adding a few wind mills for example. But the rail line could also go through Tissoons if that's still preferred I guess, and then we can develop more closely to the airport. But I think that wasn't the original vision.Squizie3 (talk) 00:58, 3 June 2019 (CEST)

To the N of the airport is intensive agriculture; to the E residential/industrial and to the S suburban, with distinct separation between villages. /wangi (talk) 01:10, 3 June 2019 (CEST)

Okay let's figure out what we will do. A few days ago I did a bit of mapping in the region to resolve the unfinished look of the area north of the A 1. I also expanded Garbo with a newly developed area which is built over the new GoHSR alignment between GWP and Gobras City. I think all of this fits really well in the backstory. So how we got here is as follows IMO: From 1995 till 2001 the Gobras Worldport underwent a large upgrade (according to the wiki), and at the same time the railway access to the airport also got a complete overhaul with the arrival of the new GoHSR line between Gobras City and Carratta. As the state and country really wanted to push these plans forward they agreed a deal with the inhabitants of Gobras City to keep the area between the Worldport and the Reservation Plantation as open as possible, because prior to this deal the government planned a large scale city expansion in this relatively untouched area. In that deal it was agreed to allow a few transit oriented developments alongside subway line 7 and the railway line, and to keep the rest agricultural or even natural in some places. To make the policies even more visible on the map we could add some ecoducts over the A 1 and the western main line in between the developments. One of those TOD places is Garbo, which was expanded to the south (and possibly also to the north) and which was planned at the same time the HSR was built, so they made a fairly simple cut and cover tunnel and built the new neighbourhood around it with a park on top of it. The rest of the HSR alignment was built in a trench to minimize impact on its surroundings, which are fields with intensive agriculture but also windmills. The HSR alignment through the Technozone and Lhatvohg Fields Transit Village are also no problem, as these developments are clearly something new, probably also planned at the same time or even later as the GoHSR. I think this vision is in line with the recent discussion I saw here at this section of [[Talk:OGF:Gobras City#Line 7 to Lammestow, GoHSR, Palaconsino River|Talk:OGF:Gobras City]]. There the wish was expressed to develop a little more alongside the western mainline, so I think an extra development similar to Garbo halfway Garbo and District Line would be best, and Garbo itself could also be expanded a bit north. Until here I think most will agree, as I primarily took over existing visions of the area written on this page or on [[Talk:OGF:Gobras City]].

But there is one thing which is not yet addressed: the north-western railway curve which connects the Worldport with Chanton. I saw Wangi recently proposed to delete that one, but I think it can be a useful rail link for conventional trains on a route Havreg-Kalainee-Aldeness-Chanton-District Line-Worldport(-Milaukáshka) and/or Fallsington-Braxton-Chanton-District Line-Worldport(-Marangai) These are however no GoHSR trains so the rail connection may get a different alignment if favoured and should probably also be connected to the mainline to Chanton instead of the HSR line to Havreg. But I think it won't be a good idea to delete it completely, as it fits quite neatly in between Garbo and a possible new development halfway Garbo and District Line, so costs to construct this as part of the larger plan would't be too high. So I propose that the current alignment can be kept or an alignment with slightly sharper curves could be made, depending on the size of the development halfway Garbo and District Line. That development could just as Garbo consist of older and newer parts, so the main criteria is that the NW rail curve fits so it only has to go through fields or under a newer part at worst. But I think it's best to keep at least some NW-curve as it does not conflict with the vision for the region and it adds a lot of connectivity. Depending on the new developments taking place, the alignment might get changed though. Squizie3 (talk) 07:43, 18 June 2019 (CEST)

Carratta

File:Carratta railways.png

Railways in the Carratta region

Allright, we've planned a nationwide GoHSR service pattern, and the complete GoHSR network is more or less suited to roll out all routes as mentioned on the map a few sections to the top of this page. Except for one region... Carratta. In Carratta two GoHSR services converge: the south coast line from Kaisiriga to Gobras City, and the mountain line from Phailoon to Gobras City. This will always be the case, as most passengers are expected to travel to the capital, the minority travelling between the south coast and Phailoon/Quesagnais will need to change trains in Carratta. But if we look at the current alignment of the railways in Carratta, this service pattern is not possible without trains having to turn sides, which takes a lot of time. However, we can overcome this by making a new alignment in Carratta which routes both GoHSR routes to Gobras City through a new station.

But we're not there yet. It also turns out that the existing alignments of both the south coast GoHSR line and the mountain GoHSR line are fairly unrealistic. If you look closely to the map, you can see that the south coast GoHSR runs in a tunnel under the city centre, after which it follows a curvy alignment alongside the river through a large park. This alignment clearly depicts this is a rather old railway, as this must clearly have existed before the city grew larger as no-one would construct such a curvy alignment through dense neighbourhoods and taking away one of the few green spaces left. But in stead the alignment is marked as a dedicated GoHSR railway, which means it could only be constructed more recently or it is converted from an older railway. Both are unrealistic, and the latter would also mean various smaller stations along the alignment would have been closed for this to happen. So the best option here is to make a new more realistic GoHSR railway alignment elsewhere, and convert this line into a more historical commuter rail line with some extra stations.

The alignment of the mountain GoHSR line also isn't very realistic. After the line crosses the border to Alora, it goes into various long tunnels to make its way through the foothills of a mountain range. But only a few kilometers south the terrain changes to a completely flat plain, where also the A 7/E-7 motorways and the conventional railway line run. So in stead of having the GoHSR running through these tunnels, it would make much more sense to replace this with a new alignment more to the south, preferably bundled with the A 7/E-7 through Alora.

Both alignment changes are also necessary to make the main reason for this post happen: a new alignment in Carratta which routes both GoHSR routes to a new Central Station and then continues further to Gobras City. Because both new GoHSR alignments can now join south-west of the city, they can follow a new alignment from there almost till the existing station north-west of the city centre, where a new Central Station can be constructed very close to the city centre. The existing conventional railway lines west of the city can also be shifted to this new alignment and the new Central Station, and the converted commuter rail line can also make a turn to the new station. Because the area is not yet developed much it's possible to make this new alignment and Central Station as if it was already there for a very long time, probably since the 1900's. The old Carratta station can just be removed, as it's not even well mapped. And the old railway line slightly more west of Carratta could be used as a freight only line, as there is a lot of industry over there.

But for this new Central Station with through traffic GoHSR-services it's necessary to have both GoHSR lines to be realigned as described and as visible on the map. But as one of these lines runs through the nearby country of Alora, I couldn't just start mapping this but in stead we need to ask Indyroads first. I'll message him to take a look here. I hope we will all agree to these changes as it's really necessary for the GoHSR services and to add more realism to the railway lines in the Carratta region. I'd be happy to start mapping them.

Squizie3 (talk) 06:31, 7 June 2019 (CEST)

I agree with your proposals and reasoning. /wangi (talk) 11:04, 7 June 2019 (CEST)

I noticed the Carratta problem of having a reversing movement too. It didn't bother me much, as some HSR trainsets in Germany have to pull the same move and could add some realism.

But I am ok with the realignment. It wouldn't be shocking to me for part of the realignment to overlap with the legacy rail line north of Vollatia, and not be 100% overlapping with the A7.

It's a shame for Carratta to have such a major station and for it to be in a place that wouldn't attract much TOD adjacent to the highway though.

PS. I would not try to go for gold and put a station at Carratta Airport... for once

--Dono87 (talk) 23:38, 7 June 2019 (CEST)

I got the permission from indyroads to map the new alignment trough Alora, but it may take a while for me to map it as I'm a bit busy right now. But I'll certainly do it after some time, so stay tuned. For now the GoHSR route relations turn sides in Carratta.

And I think the new Carratta station will certainly open up new possibilities, we can probably expand the city centre a bit more to the west around the new station. Oh and yes, I'll not make a GoHSR station at the airport ;) In fact, I wouldn't mind if the airport was downscaled or even removed completely as there are a bit too much international airports in the region in my opinion. Squizie3 (talk) 05:03, 18 June 2019 (CEST)