Forum:Archive/German homelands
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Why is RW-German linked to OGF-Gaerman?--Mstr (talk) 23:18, 3 September 2017 (CEST)
Perhaps Gaerman should be the same as Kalmish and Mergan? --tule00 17:14, 23 February 2019 (CET)
A new Gaerman Motherland?
Hello dudes and dudettes, What would you think of creating a Gaermanic homeland. Something big enough like UL074. I propose that it will be a collaborative, where everyone who asks can have a 'Bundesland', much like Antigo / PFS with their 'duchies' What do you think? --Tito zz (talk) 15:47, 14 March 2019 (CET)
- That seems like a good idea, particularly since Kalm is isolated from other major Gaermanic nations. Just bear in mind that it will need admin intervention.
- Also -- we need a better name for this. "Gaerman" sounds too unnatural and it doesn't have a Germanic vibe. --tule00 15:52, 14 March 2019 (CET)
- We do not need a new name for something which is already there since years! German = Kalmish and Germany (in the sense of being a cultural motherland) corresponds to Kalm since the beginning of OGF. And no, Kalm is not isolated from the rest, maybe a few countries are isolated from Kalm... and the terminology "Gaerman" as language only exists for whatever reason in some countries, I think it is unnecessary, if those who use it cannot explain what the difference to Kalmish is.--Mstr (talk) 16:03, 14 March 2019 (CET)
- What I mean by "isolated": Kalm is on the northwest of Uletha, while most German and German-adjacent countries are on the east/southeast. --tule00 16:27, 14 March 2019 (CET)
- Present day Germany would be a boring topic to map compared with its history. Just in the last 150 years, there were for instance the West/East division with West-Berlin, or the semi-autonomous duchies evolving into a prussia-dominated union of states. In any case, this "everybody can have a sub-territory" thing is not really collaborative and leads to patchy mapping. Also you have to be careful with naming. I can't say for sure how my invented English place names sound. But being German, I have seen very atrocious invented German place names here. That's something I would not want to see in any community sanctioned Germany clone. --Toadwart (talk) 16:14, 14 March 2019 (CET)
- Actually patchy mapping does resemble a formerly divided country. But that's not the main concern. I still agree with you, and the reason is (like MSTR said) -- We already have Kalm. We don't need something that had the exact same history as Germany. Generally I am against the idea that we need to make an OGF version of everything. We have to use our imagination sometimes. --tule00 16:27, 14 March 2019 (CET)
- I don't understand the concern for a "German" homeland. Kalm, by user @joschi81, was one of the founding nations of OGF (joschi81's urbangeofiction website, which has a pre-OGF version of Tarott, was, I believe, one of the things that inspired Thilo to create OGF in the first place). Kalm remains one of the best-conceived countries in OGF and is clearly "OGF Germany." When I came to OGF, it was the first and ONLY plausible "European Homeland" in OGF, and it's still miles ahead of Ingerland or Castellan, both of which have major problems in my opinion. The fact that "most of the German-adjacent countries are on the east/southeast" isn't Joschi's fault, and it isn't OGF Admin's fault - it's the fault of the people who put those countries there later and don't have enough imagination to make up a good reason why it worked out that way. Maybe there was some kind of pre-modern German diaspora (like all the Germans who got settled in unusual places in Russia). Perhaps unlike the real world, Kalm had an 18th/19th century colonial empire?--Luciano (talk) 16:40, 14 March 2019 (CET)
- Thank you Luciano for the clarification! I'm working (since a long time) on a reasonable explanation how Kalmish came (quite early!) to the far east, so I'm not the one who complains about it, I take it as it is.--Mstr (talk) 17:04, 14 March 2019 (CET)
- Some time ago I thought about this issue and the only solution I have found (except for obvious and always working colonization) is great migration in early Middle Ages (via Suria or UL137) because almost all Kalmish countries in the south-east are located on the mild curve begging in Kalm. It allows to justify some differences between Kalmish and Reelant and Mergan dialects. I did not put it into discussion because I had no interest to do so but now when the subject appeared I decided to put it here although personally I don't find it as the best solution. --Rüstem Paşa Discussion 17:51, 14 March 2019 (CET)
- Thank you Rustem Pasha! I am, in fact, very interested in such good ideas how to deal with the language (and culture) issue. I see migration and trade as a good way to establish some links to Kalm in the early Middle Ages. However, there must be a good explanation why nowadays languages are quite similar. I don't have a solution for that :(--Mstr (talk) 18:58, 14 March 2019 (CET)
- There are several reasons why some languages change faster than the others. For example old Polish (~500 years ago) is readable for native speaker while English is rather impossible. The large factor behind that is language conservatism (the same can be observed among Basques, Albanians etc.). High literacy and codification of language rules also preserves them. But this doesn't explain why current Mergans should have identical modern words (radio, tv etc.). I would rather prefer explanation similar to the process happened in Turkey during language reform. Ottoman language had many borrowings from other languages and during national revival these loanwords were exchanged on Turkish ones coming from other Turkic languages (Azeri, Turkmen...). The same backward evolution could happen in Mergany some time ago. Or maybe the Mergan language could be resurrected from the dead (being intentionally one to one copy of Kalmish with own alphabet) --Rüstem Paşa Discussion 13:59, 17 March 2019 (CET)
- Thank you Rustem Pasha! I am, in fact, very interested in such good ideas how to deal with the language (and culture) issue. I see migration and trade as a good way to establish some links to Kalm in the early Middle Ages. However, there must be a good explanation why nowadays languages are quite similar. I don't have a solution for that :(--Mstr (talk) 18:58, 14 March 2019 (CET)
- Some time ago I thought about this issue and the only solution I have found (except for obvious and always working colonization) is great migration in early Middle Ages (via Suria or UL137) because almost all Kalmish countries in the south-east are located on the mild curve begging in Kalm. It allows to justify some differences between Kalmish and Reelant and Mergan dialects. I did not put it into discussion because I had no interest to do so but now when the subject appeared I decided to put it here although personally I don't find it as the best solution. --Rüstem Paşa Discussion 17:51, 14 March 2019 (CET)
- Thank you Luciano for the clarification! I'm working (since a long time) on a reasonable explanation how Kalmish came (quite early!) to the far east, so I'm not the one who complains about it, I take it as it is.--Mstr (talk) 17:04, 14 March 2019 (CET)
- That exploded quicker than I expected, hehe. But my idea was that we have a large country, which is collaborative. Although Kalm is a good-mapped country, I think people would like to collaborate on a Gaerman country, and shape how it goes. Maybe it could have a colonial history, with a small amount of colonies, like Germany in real life. I know some people don't like the idea of a German homeland, but we need equivalents to real life in some places, because we need a plausible reason for languages to be where they are. In some cases (not gonna mention them), the language of a nation just doesn't make sense. --Tito zz (talk) 17:20, 14 March 2019 (CET)
Whatever happens it needs to be more original than changing one letter of the city names! :) /wangi (talk) 18:14, 14 March 2019 (CET)
- I ask myself why Tito do not consider a decision of admins... And he know what I am talking about. Is needed I copy to this article the message I explained why there will be not Gaermany in OGF? About these type of collaborative projects not be heading by users - only if the user be nominated by admins? Also, an user who, apparently, do not speak german, coordinating the german motherland? Why asking to the people if admin said "no" previously? A lot of questions to be considered... -- BMSOUZA (talk) 18:46, 14 March 2019 (CET)
- Why does someone upload "plans" about a foreign territory in the wiki? "That exploded quicker than I expected, hehe" Was that "explosion" the only intention of your "proposal"? Call me humorless, but OGF is mainly to draw fictional maps, not to fill a wiki with debates about "we need" and "some people".--Mstr (talk) 18:58, 14 March 2019 (CET)
- I must say, I am quite disturbed that the fact was withheld, that this proposal was already refused by admin. --Toadwart (talk) 19:08, 14 March 2019 (CET)
- Why does someone upload "plans" about a foreign territory in the wiki? "That exploded quicker than I expected, hehe" Was that "explosion" the only intention of your "proposal"? Call me humorless, but OGF is mainly to draw fictional maps, not to fill a wiki with debates about "we need" and "some people".--Mstr (talk) 18:58, 14 March 2019 (CET)
- I ask myself why Tito do not consider a decision of admins... And he know what I am talking about. Is needed I copy to this article the message I explained why there will be not Gaermany in OGF? About these type of collaborative projects not be heading by users - only if the user be nominated by admins? Also, an user who, apparently, do not speak german, coordinating the german motherland? Why asking to the people if admin said "no" previously? A lot of questions to be considered... -- BMSOUZA (talk) 18:46, 14 March 2019 (CET)
Kalm ever was though as a "germanic" speaking homeland. Kalm has german names and this names are german-authentic. Why? Joschi81 is a natural german speaker. I think, we need no other "german" or "gearmen" homeland. An other "gearmen" speaking land is Zylanda in Archanta with a story bound to Kalm. --Histor (talk) 21:56, 14 March 2019 (CET)
And yes - it is necessary for a cleanup for all this endless lists and tables for languages in the OGF-wiki. Let us make only one. --Histor (talk) 22:05, 14 March 2019 (CET)
- Agreed. All this mess with German language is just too much. If Kalmish is identical to modern day German there is no need of "Gaerman" and all the other German-Identical languages like "Pollonian" and such.
--Ifgus (talk) 01:15, 15 March 2019 (EET)
I can't respond to everyone individually, but I think that we have a final decision: No Gaermany, no Däutschland, just Kalm. As for languages, yes, Mergan should probably be the same as Gaerman and Kalmish (which is what I proposed before). Ree is different from German, so I think it should stay a different language, but I am not denying that it stemmed from Kalmish.
Also, I think it's not that hard to imagine a history where Kalm would mix with Mergany, which in turn mixed with Ree indigenous people, etc. It's not the same as the real world, but it shouldn't be. There is an important difference between verisimilitude and reality. --tule00 00:18, 19 March 2019 (CET)
Making Gaerman, Kalmish and Mergan etc. one language?
They're the same anyway. Why should they be 3 different languages if they're the same? --Tito zz (talk) 15:08, 20 March 2019 (CET)
- I completely agree. RW German also has different dialects (depending on the Bundesland, or in Austria, Switzerland), so the only good reason to make them different is that countries do that intentionally for political reasons (that happens in my country -- in Serbia, Montenegro, Croatia, and Bosnia and Herzegovina, everyone speaks different dialects of one language -- but due to the tension between nations, they all claim to be different). But nevertheless I think that in this case this scenario shouldn't happen (there is no tension between Kalm, Mergany and other similar nations), so yes, I think they should all be one language. --tule00 15:16, 20 March 2019 (CET)
- "They're the same anyway" Oh, so do you decide about that finally? First you announce to create a new German duplicate, tule00 applauds, then you make several useless plans for foreign territories which are not available, and now, only a few days later, you dictate what other countries/languages are, tule00 applauds again. To cite, what everybody is able to read: "Mergan is the Eastern Ulethan variety of Kalmish", that's it, nothing else. So I care about Mergan, that there is a history how it came from west to east, and why it is still closely related to Kalmish. That's what I am doing, with those people who are somehow affected (the creator of Kalmish and the users of Mergan). I do not care about what Gaerman is. If you are really interested in Gaerman you have to ask the users who use it (I already did it a long time ago). So, to make it short: there is no decision possible by users who are not involved in a story nor something to completely agree on. --Mstr (talk) 17:52, 20 March 2019 (CET)
- In addition, to underline my point of view, I cite the OGF wiki rules: "The guidelines for participation are roughly analogous to those of OGF itself: [...] Generally, you should create/edit only articles about objects that you have mapped yourself. If you have a great idea about someone else's creations, contact that user and discuss it."--Mstr (talk) 18:10, 20 March 2019 (CET)
- Firstly, please do not antagonize me or start a fight. As you said, Mergan is a variant of Kalmish. Then why not count them as the same language? If you don't want to, that's also an option (perhaps Mergany declared its own language as a symbol of independence from Kalmish colonists?). Nobody is forcing you to do this, I just think it's the best thing to do. After all, everything we write has to be historically justified. That's why, Mergan aside, I think that "Gaerman", "Gaermany" and "Gaermanic" are completely unrealistic names. The letter Ä exists for a reason. Back to Mergan. Like I said above, there is a good reason for this, and a good reason against this. Actually, I think there are multiple reasons, both for and against this. So please, don't be sarcastic and let's discuss this in a civilized manner. --tule00 23:13, 24 March 2019 (CET)
- It is not my intention to antagonize anyone (who complies with the rules)! It is just as I said, the problem is not the discussion, the problem is the way how this - you call it "discussion" - takes place. Instead of directly adressing the people who are involved in this issue (in this specific case: e.g. the creator of different languages or countries) and accepting their response (and also their nonresponse), some users start a public "discussion" on their own account about something they have never been involved in (so the question arises, who is not able to "discuss this in a civilized manner"). This is clearly against the rules I've cited above. Moreover, this happens all the time (in the user diaries it is even more common that 15 new users with 25 accounts applaude at each others "ideas"), but at least it happend two times on this page: One day, the creator of "Ünglend" decides that the country of a founding member has no relevance at all and a few days later he proposes that some other country must have another language - no matter what the intention to create some difference was! What happens if the corresponding users don't have time to react or don't want to react all the time to something like this? Some people start changing languages, world history and other countries on their own like it has happened many times before... no! --Mstr (talk) 00:17, 25 March 2019 (CET)
- Bear in mind that this is just a discussion, and it does not ignore your opinion. Nobody would change Mergan without your consent. And like I wrote in the above section, I think we shouldn't have a "Däutschland" or "Gaermany" after all, because Kalm is there, and it was there (on OGF and in OGF-history) before most of the other "Gaermanic" nations. Don't take it personally, because it's not personal. I just think -- after all, you said this too -- that we can't have every single user make their own copy of a country, without any creativity (this has happened before, many times) and that also includes reinventing an existing language. Kalmish and Gaerman are precisely the same (Mergan is different somewhat) so I don't see a reason why the two should be separate languages. "Gaerman" is exactly a copy of German -- and its name is actually not very Germanic in nature. Let's look at the real world. USA, a very influential country, still speaks English and calls it English. Same goes for Brazil and Portuguese. Many nations of Latin America and Spanish. Again, this is my analysis, and I would not do anything about someone else's wiki. But there's nothing wrong with making suggestions, because it really is a good idea to merge Kalmish and Gaerman. --tule00 00:50, 25 March 2019 (CET)
- You might be right with Kalmish and Gaerman, but I think we all cannot decide about that (we can only decide on our own that we talk about Kalmish if we mean German). A long time ago I've recognized this problem and tried to find out about the intention behind the different languages (also bear in mind that the user who created the Gaerman page and linked to many pages it is not the one who introduced it in OGF). The result was: nothing. So people who like to use Gaerman (if it is different or just another name for the same language) should use it as long as they want, but Kalmish corresponds to Standard German.--Mstr (talk) 01:05, 25 March 2019 (CET)
- I, personally, for the sake of verisimilitude, will use the word "Kalmish" to refer to German in OGF. Like Histor said, consistency in OGF is just a dream. But that doesn't mean we should just let things be inconsistent. I can't convince all of OGF users to use "Kalmish" instead of "Gaerman", but I can try. Everything needs an initiative to happen. The only thing we can do now is raise awareness about this issue and hear other people's opinions. --tule00 16:11, 25 March 2019 (CET)
- You might be right with Kalmish and Gaerman, but I think we all cannot decide about that (we can only decide on our own that we talk about Kalmish if we mean German). A long time ago I've recognized this problem and tried to find out about the intention behind the different languages (also bear in mind that the user who created the Gaerman page and linked to many pages it is not the one who introduced it in OGF). The result was: nothing. So people who like to use Gaerman (if it is different or just another name for the same language) should use it as long as they want, but Kalmish corresponds to Standard German.--Mstr (talk) 01:05, 25 March 2019 (CET)
- Bear in mind that this is just a discussion, and it does not ignore your opinion. Nobody would change Mergan without your consent. And like I wrote in the above section, I think we shouldn't have a "Däutschland" or "Gaermany" after all, because Kalm is there, and it was there (on OGF and in OGF-history) before most of the other "Gaermanic" nations. Don't take it personally, because it's not personal. I just think -- after all, you said this too -- that we can't have every single user make their own copy of a country, without any creativity (this has happened before, many times) and that also includes reinventing an existing language. Kalmish and Gaerman are precisely the same (Mergan is different somewhat) so I don't see a reason why the two should be separate languages. "Gaerman" is exactly a copy of German -- and its name is actually not very Germanic in nature. Let's look at the real world. USA, a very influential country, still speaks English and calls it English. Same goes for Brazil and Portuguese. Many nations of Latin America and Spanish. Again, this is my analysis, and I would not do anything about someone else's wiki. But there's nothing wrong with making suggestions, because it really is a good idea to merge Kalmish and Gaerman. --tule00 00:50, 25 March 2019 (CET)
- It is not my intention to antagonize anyone (who complies with the rules)! It is just as I said, the problem is not the discussion, the problem is the way how this - you call it "discussion" - takes place. Instead of directly adressing the people who are involved in this issue (in this specific case: e.g. the creator of different languages or countries) and accepting their response (and also their nonresponse), some users start a public "discussion" on their own account about something they have never been involved in (so the question arises, who is not able to "discuss this in a civilized manner"). This is clearly against the rules I've cited above. Moreover, this happens all the time (in the user diaries it is even more common that 15 new users with 25 accounts applaude at each others "ideas"), but at least it happend two times on this page: One day, the creator of "Ünglend" decides that the country of a founding member has no relevance at all and a few days later he proposes that some other country must have another language - no matter what the intention to create some difference was! What happens if the corresponding users don't have time to react or don't want to react all the time to something like this? Some people start changing languages, world history and other countries on their own like it has happened many times before... no! --Mstr (talk) 00:17, 25 March 2019 (CET)
- "They're the same anyway" Oh, so do you decide about that finally? First you announce to create a new German duplicate, tule00 applauds, then you make several useless plans for foreign territories which are not available, and now, only a few days later, you dictate what other countries/languages are, tule00 applauds again. To cite, what everybody is able to read: "Mergan is the Eastern Ulethan variety of Kalmish", that's it, nothing else. So I care about Mergan, that there is a history how it came from west to east, and why it is still closely related to Kalmish. That's what I am doing, with those people who are somehow affected (the creator of Kalmish and the users of Mergan). I do not care about what Gaerman is. If you are really interested in Gaerman you have to ask the users who use it (I already did it a long time ago). So, to make it short: there is no decision possible by users who are not involved in a story nor something to completely agree on. --Mstr (talk) 17:52, 20 March 2019 (CET)
It is difficult, to write in english about "german" language. What here means "german"? All germanic languages or only the language of Germany, in german called "deutsch". In the OGF-wiki here is a lot information, what can be misunderstanded. So I prefer to clean up rigorously. We have the great Westulethan language group (real world - indoeuropeen languages), from which is "gearmanic" a part, divited in northern "gearmanic" (skandinavia - we can name it "norse" or so) - on OGF spoken in Östermark and other countries and in western "gearmanic", better known as kalmish dialects. From this old-kalmish dialect-continuum early are to seen two groups - low and hi-kalmish. With other influences from low-kalmisch generated ingelsk in the one hand and zylandian (saksn) in the other. Hi-kalmish is spoken in Kalm - and Mergany (?) and other states in Eastern Uletha. --Histor (talk) 00:07, 25 March 2019 (CET)
- You are right, but for cleaning up the languages won't be enough. Wouldn't it require to change the position of most countries and the history to get consistency? --Mstr (talk) 00:25, 25 March 2019 (CET)
- Constistency - I think - will be a dream in the OGF-world. We only can avoid the greatest mistakes. --Histor (talk) 00:33, 25 March 2019 (CET)
- Yes, sorry Mstr. I think Mergan could remain a dialect or another language, but my intent was that we would merge Gaerman and Kalmish. They are totally the same. If Gaerman and Kalmish were different by small things (for example usage of ss or ß, like in Switzerland / Germany). Maybe someone could go here[1] and change Gaerman to Kalmish. Just an idea. --Tito zz (talk) 14:18, 1 April 2019 (CEST)