Forum:Official collaboratives/Discussion about Lechia

Forums → Official collaboratives → Official collaboratives/Discussion about Lechia

Hello, everyone. As part of our administrative duties in West Uletha, we're looking to gauge the interest in some long-held collaborative ideas to see if they are viable or needed at this time. First up, we want to talk about what is commonly called "Lechia." This is a two-part question for discussion.

1. Is there any interest in even having Lechia as a collaborative territory? Or, should we continue to sponsor our existing collection of Polish-speaking states and not worry about it?
   • Rationale behind this question:
     • Right now there are a nice handful of Polish-speaking states in the region, and we do not wish to disrupt the good work being done there. Having Lechia might dilute the region. There is plenty of space to expand our number of Polish-speaking states, including adding a collab down the road.
     • Even without a collab, the concept of a historic "Lechia" as a region for the homeland of the Lechian language is still viable. The difference is that it would be the collective of the region instead of an independent state. There does not need to be a collab to be a language homeland in this instance. Also, the removal of Lechia does not preclude historic Lechian-speaking peoples from having spread westward across the rift.
2. If there is real, measurable interest in the collaborative territory, does it need to stay where it is? Could Lechia be shifted south a bit, to occupy parts of what was once northeastern Pretany; or, could it be shifted east, across the rift, into the open coastal region north of our existing Polish-speaking states?
   • Rationale behind this question:
     • Right now, Lechia is a bit further north than Poland, and this impact on climate is not entirely insignificant—even if we give some measure of wiggle room for plausibility like we are elsewhere.
     • Relocating it south or east not only corrects climate but also allows for a future expansion of various Scandinavian cultures and or conlangs inspired by adjacent regions.

Please let us know below what you think of these things. Specifically, please let us know if you are actually and genuinely interested in participating as an active member of a Lechia collab. Thanks!

• — Alessa _(talk) 20:26, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
• Bixelkoven (talk) 20:26, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

To give an answer to the first question it's important to understand one thing:

Why is Lechia like this?

I asked Stjur to make Lechia reserved territory because some parts of the territory are examples of model Polish mapping and outstanding mapping performance in general, especially at the time when we talked about it, it was about three years ago or something like that, since then OGF mapping standards improved and some areas like northern forest are not that unique anymore. However Ifeel that still some places, namely the areas around Krasynin and Bytomin (in general the latter can and should be detailed further), should be preserved because it can be model mapping for all Polish mappers. This of course doesn't mean they must stay in Lechia or Lechia must stay untouched.

On the other hand Lechia was there for many years and influenced heavily four countries (Wyspy Nieskańskie, Łany, Żeklinia-Dregolezja, Dregowina) so if it is meant to stay as an territory, it should stay somewhere in the region. That may mean current place or almost any other borderin Żeklinia would be probably acceptable however it would still place Lechia further north than Poland so it's not a solution for the climate problem... although I'm not sure if it is actual problem, Lechia is currently not in a place which would be beyond imagination of average Polish mapper and creates some interesting opportunities. Additionally we should remember Lechia contains ~800k objects of which about half are in Krasynin and Bytomin so if anything is meant to be moved, there should be good reason for that. Given that constraints Lechia can be easily shifted south a bit with Krasynin being close to northern border. That's relatively small gain for Scandinavian culture but it's also cheap.

Is collaborative Lechia needed then?

For me not really. From my perspective Lechia pretty much doubles things I already have in parts of Dregovine and makes it in more generic, "boring" way. I can't speak about other Polish mappers in the region but I don't really get why west side of the strait is supposed to be more attractive than the east... Additionally my experience from Ardencia shows that Poles in general prefer owning individual territories and do some regional collaboration than being par of a larger collab. At the top the current Lechian mapping has certain issues, mostly related to naming. Many places are named after RW people and town names seem to be taken from some place name generator which merged actual Polish city names without much understanding (which is understandable practice as inventing non-generic Slavic place names is generally difficult).

So what to do?

I would propose relatively radical solution - removal of Lechia with the most precious parts of mapping (Krasynin, Bytomin again) being relocated to some Polish or partially Polish territory (I would naturally think about Żeklinia-Dregolezja but of course I can't decide about that), maybe with some expansion if needed. As I said we don't necessarily need the collab and centre of Polish culture and historic presence can be relatively easy switched to east side of the strait. That's all from me at this point. Rustem Pasha (talk) 09:54, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Slowly and sensibly, otherwise not

Watching OGF, I have the impression that some members of the community are too much based on real countries and limit themselves too much. Should Lechia be the second Poland? Should Lechia be moved so that it resembles Poland more climatically? In my opinion, definitely not. What for?

I don't understand the term "examples of model Polish mapping" in OGF. When I have to create a territory, I analyze its location, climate, neighborhood and from all these factors I try to create a story. These factors - which we also create ourselves - have an impact on how cities and villages look like. We ourselves create a "mapping model" of a given country. In my opinion, modeling on the "Polish model" is a step in the wrong direction. I understand some patterns. We take the language in its entirety, we take examples from certain historical events, because it is easier for us to understand their effects that way, or they are simply interesting. What effects will this lead us to? In my opinion, it would be nice if it was something original and not Poland 2.0.

We have the Polish language, but a different climate, a different neighbourhood, a rocky coast, a sparsely populated north and a densely populated south, where a "Lechic" identity would probably be created. All this gives cool opportunities to create interesting solutions. It could be a nice challenge. Countries such as Lechia are ideal as a collaboration for all Polish-speaking users. But you have to sit down and calmly create the whole story, think about how it will affect the present, and only then try to map it.

However, in my opinion, the idea of ​​a Polish-speaking homeland should be created in collaboration, slowly and reliably. But for that you need committed users. And they must be willing to cooperate. Otherwise, there's no point in starting. And as long as there are no such users, the project should be hibernated, or a solid foundation for the future should be created.

When creating the Nieski Islands, I was inspired by certain historical events. In the past, it was supposed to be something like a monastic state, like the state of the Teutonic Knights, only this time of the Lechian nation. Nieski are not able to be a fully independent state. It has a smaller population than Liechtenstein. The "big and historical brother" is needed here like a drip. Even across the strait.

Olejowy (talk) 11:37, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I feel like I should explain several things. I would like to see homelands bringing some original ideas. But it was tried many times in the past, even including Polish language. In Ardencia part of the country was supposed to be collaborative territory for Poles. Sadly it was either contradictory to what Polish mappers wanted or be able to create at the time and for many that project remained the symbol of failure. Practice shows, like it or not, that the only collaborative territories which are at least moderately successful are those with relatively strict country analogues. As much as I see it as boring and somewhat anti-geofiction, I can't do much about it. So from that perspective my mention about Krasynin as showcase mapping makes slightly more sense. And even not then, it's worth to be preserved in some way. Rustem Pasha (talk) 12:09, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I don’t think the lack of activity in Ardencia is indicative of potential interest in a Polish language homeland collaboration. The concept was somewhat ambitious theming-wise and difficult to reconcile with the in-universe location of Lechia. IMO the location in the middle of nowhere also made it a hard sell.

As it stands, I think the primary issue with Lechia is that it’s a large, mostly unmapped and inactive territory, which contributes to the Ulethan green & grey belt issue.

It’s also been there forever, so it’s entrenched in lore for multiple Great North Sea countries. Moving it to UL14 or removing it entirely is going to mess with that.

Because of these two facts, I think the best way forward is as a collaborative. It would allow the preexisting, still quite high quality mapping to be expanded upon, it’s the simplest way to keep the lore consistent and such a collab could be a potential go-to destination for any future Polish-speaking mappers. I’d say shifting the borders south would make sense, especially given that parts of north-eastern Pretany used to be in Lechia back when it was called Galicia.

I recognise that there is a limited amount of Polish-speaking mappers around, but any, even glacial progress in mapping Lechia would be an improvement on the last couple of years of limbo. --Trabantemnaksiezyc (talk) 13:29, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps the key to success would be to combine two conflicting needs:

1. Pro-geofication activities, i.e. creating something new and not imitating real countries.

2. The need for the state we are creating to have a real equivalent, because it is conducive to activity.

Whether we like it or not, Lechia meets the second condition. It is the homeland of the Polish language and no matter how hard we try, these Polish references will appear. The unobvious location and climate rather south-Finnish and the need to adapt to it would be a nod to the first need.

I rarely see a map of Ardencia. I'm terrified of the mess there. The Lechia project (if it was to be created) would have to be managed in detail and reliably.

Even if we want to follow the example of Poland, I still consider the term "examples of model Polish mapping" to be too general. Lower Silesia and Podlasie differ more than two countries often do. The key here is to write the story and pay attention to the details. Olejowy (talk) 16:53, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

So, is there interest in the collaborative project to commence? I'd like to see how many people are interested in it, and if we find the amount of people sufficient, we can move on to further talks. It would be great if we can get an answer in the coming days (if not, it will be understood that as a No).

Of course, I know this should be thoroughly discussed, but I want to be sure there are people interested to begin with. Bixelkoven (talk) 19:40, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

I'd likely be interested in contributing to the project if others also want to join in (I guess that's the definition of a collaborative). --Trabantemnaksiezyc (talk) 22:27, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

I support the idea of ​​this project. Creating historical foundations for Lechia is important for the entire Great North Sea basin. Olejowy (talk) 12:45, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

I'd love to see the borders move south, as it was in the time of Galicia. By the way Pretany in their current form, in my opinion, make absolutely no sense here, especially since there is now collab Ingerland, so Lechia could extend even further south to be closer to Suria. Łany were intended to be a Lechian province, which became independent very early for some reasons, so even if Lechia were to disappear or be relocated, I would like to know more details. Lankusiek (talk) 21:21, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Recent changes only discourage collaboration

https://i.imgur.com/pBxOUlg.png

In the real world, at this latitude, we have around 6 large countries in terms of surface area. On OGF, there are probably over 20 of them. The remaining part of Lechia currently has the potential for a maximum of 5 million people (and that's with a slight climate warming). Unlike Finland or Sweden, Lechia does not lie on the shores of the Baltic Sea and does not have such convenient access to oceans - on the north, there is only ice.

The cities and villages located in Lechia are also far from realism - someone who created them clearly took inspiration from Poland, but it's not the same climate after all. All of it should be reduced and thinned out to make it more realistic.

If Lechia extended as far south as it did a few weeks ago, then it would have had the potential for a larger population, giving it a chance to be some kind of dominant power in the region. However, currently, it lacks the potential for anything significant, maybe only for a well-developed timber industry.

I believe that recent actions have only discouraged collaboration on working on Lechia.

This is why I'm worried.

Olejowy (talk) 13:43, 2 August 2023 (UTC)