Forum:Territory application/TA231 - Livereia

Forums → Territory application → Territory application/TA231 - Livereia

Please fill in the information below to make a territory request.

Before going into details; this location is so far the best place for the suggested plan, despite being marked for advanced users (as if I, with several years of OSM experience but only 2-week presence in OGF, would count as one). Nevertheless; I'm confident that I can catch that high standard with correct mapping strategy, which is why I'm asking for this specific territory.

	Territory ID and proposed name
	The Territory ID (from OpenGeofiction:Territories, e.g. AR123a) and proposed name of the country

TA231 - Livereia

	Physical geography
	An overview of climate, topography and landscape of the country. It is advised to also create a sketch, you can add a link to this (hosted on imgur or similar)

Livereia is a tropical country with jungles, mountains, plains and beaches. Interior regions are covered by mountainous terrain and jungles, with several settlements being present, inhabited by natives. Coastal regions have most of plains and relatively flat terrain; which is used for food production and has most urban areas and industry.

Most cities are in coastal area with heavy planning; yet interior regions also contain several towns, planned and unplanned alike. The country has many villages as well; with the ones on plains have settler population and the ones in mountains and jungles have native population.

Please refer this simple paint.net edit for initial basic idea; with envisioned terrains and main urban areas are distinctly colored in a basic manner, without too much detail; in which various deviations from drawn plan may occur. (Geography plans can be amended upon contact. Coastlines may be altered during the planned map work. Land borders can (and in my opinion, should) be altered to not be geometric. Geography of area below purple-ish line should be discussed for consistency.)

	Human geography
	A brief description of the territory demographics, economic development, land occupation, infrastructure and mapping style

Oldest cities in the country are founded by the coasts in 16. century, some even utilized city walls; however few features of that era remain. Most of infrastructure is built in late 19. and early 20. century; with many of old buildings were demolished. There was an attempt to build a new capital in the in 1960s in the interior but the project was abandoned due to logistics and environmental problems, along with mass corruption of those involved. There are attempts to revive the project, however.

The colonial peoples were mostly English (Ingerish) and German (Kalmish); whom used this region as a penal colony and also an expulsion destination for Spanish (Castellans). These three groups, along with Japanese (they're unnamed apparently? I'll call it Iapanecans unless there's a name already) that arrived later, are the main bulk of population; but Ingerish is seen as a senior group.

Many colonial and "Victorian" architectural elements are used in traditionally developed architectural style up until 1960s, when the global trend of modern style is introduced. City planning is dense in old and central parts of cities, with many apartment blocks are built in terraced style. Some communist style blocks and plannings were utilized during civil war period; but both of these styles are being phased out in favor of modern or even futurist style planning, emphasizing the greenery and family. These new modern neighborhoods will have a European style (specifically, the settlements built in 2010s in Cyprus), plus more greenery; while amenities are focused on specific zones or main streets.

The countryside development is rather different; towns will have modern touchups but otherwise they will be rather irregular, signifying their village origins. Most coastal and plain areas will have orchards and farmlands; while jungle areas will be devoid of any development, save for few towns and many native villages. In most occasions, owned lands will be separated by natural tree rows (represented as area rather than line). Irregular settlements will resemble an unplanned, naturally developed village.

Transport network consists of a generally extensive road network, railroads connecting main cities to each other and to other countries, many ports and several airports. Motorways connect the major regions into each other wherever possible, with a smaller trunk road network reaching out to minor cities and mountainous major cities. Roads in plains and many crucial roads in the mountains are paved; while roads in mountainous areas lack said maintenance.

	History & culture
	A brief description of the intended culture and language

The country is home to its indigenous populations (based on Taino and Amazonian natives); who are now found in mostly mountainous regions and on the island at north. First modern settlements are founded as early as 16. century, with many of these cities and towns being founded in late 19. and early 20. centuries. Due to colonial past of the continent, majority of population have an ancestor out of the continent. These settlers (based on modern Caribbeans; mixture of colonials and natives) have been in charge for centuries, both during the colonial and post-colonial time periods.

As stated in previous section; the English and German colonizers used the region not to just settle in themselves but also relocate other nationalities, notably Spanish. For more than a century, however, the country is constantly receiving new immigrants (based on Japanese, mirroring the ones emigrated to Brazil) and they are currently making up a significant amount of total population after 5 generations.

Livereia gained independence in 1850s; in form of a constitutional monarchy. However, this monarchy was ineffective against landowners and aristocrats, as such they managed to oust monarchy in 1870s, establishing an oligarchic republic with two allied political parties. During this period, they have began inviting Iapanecan people as immigrants and later on, workers. Kalmish and Castellan people were disenfranchised along with Iapanaecans, prompting ethnic tensions.

1920s have seen a populist leader, Themopoulos Garcia slowing rising the ranks of military and was able to coup the government, defanging aristocrats and landowners, and establishing the Second Republic. Garcia was able to transform the country into a modern powerhouse; by importing industrial expertise, ending the ethnic tensions and enlarging military. However, he was assassinated during height of his popularity (1942) and the country began stagnating. Successive governments were inefficient, and were drowning in corruption. The fiasco of building a new capital in the interior in 1960s was the most notable incident, with billions of funds being embezzled.

Due to this and many other cases; General Heinz Liverez has staged a coup to prevent country from falling apart, but this move caused a civil war (Livereian Schism) happening in 1970s; with two rival governments claiming sovereignty over entire country; in which the splitter government in east assumed a communist model of governing, while Liverez effectively became a dictator. This split has been amended in mid 1980s after both parties accepted mediation and reconciliation (Concordat). No crises happened ever since; and the Third Republic was declared in the aftermath; assuming a regionalist model unlike previous regimes.

The official language is English (Ingerish); with German (Kalmish), Spanish (Castellanese), Japanese (written exclusively in hiragana. not in the index on its own so I'll call it Iapaneca) and native languages (won't be mapped at all, name is omitted) are recognized languages. General mapping of region will be done in English; except a few mixed cities in which Spanish, Japanese and German can be used too. Due to being a colonial region, native cultures have influenced the language and the settler culture.

	Past mapping
	To support your request provide links to areas of OGF mapping which showcase your mapping skill. Mapping relevant to the requested theme & geography is especially useful
	The {{coord}} template can optionally be used to link to the OGF map - it results in a nice formatted link. Or you can paste in a URL.

Beginner area with my mapping work so far; which experiments in urban and rural areas, and is constantly being worked on:

https://opengeofiction.net/#map=13/13.8703/-112.3540

I am generally a detailist in my mapping, but I can balance the detailism with this size of a country.

	Username & date
	Sign and date the application by typing four tildes like this: ~~~~

~~~~ —Unsigned comment by Afrandez (talk).

	Discussion
	Discussion for clarification & decision

• Hello! I am going to step in here to help out my fellow admin while she is unavailable. There's a lot to like about the application and your mapping. Unfortunately, there are three things we need to address first.

First, the cultural mix of English and German (with a touch of Spanish) is perfectly fine. The addition of Japanese in here, however, is not going to fit with the cultural plan Taka set up for Tarephia. There is a Japanese-language homeland that does exist on OGF, but it is in far southeastern Uletha. The distance is great and it's a bit anachronistic for there to be a Japanese presence like this in western Tarephia. There are other potential locations for where this could be relevant, but unfortunately not here. I cannot approve the application with the cultural mix as it stands now.

The second thing is how you would handle the rural areas. I see you sampling agriculture and some forests, which is good. At the same time, your plan seems to indicate a ton of jungles and what seems to be large swaths of uninhabited areas. I would be curious how you plan to detail these. Large blobs of natural=wood is only a short-term fix.

One last thing I'd like to mention is the reference to city planning. I don't see a dense core in your mapping right now. It all looks like planned development post-1970. I'm a bit confused as to how these cities would develop. Any colony (penal or not) is going to look for natural harbors and build their cores around it. Since this territory has an absolute ton of coastline, this is something I need to see before granting the territory. Also, I'm a bit confused by what you mean by Cypriot neighborhoods, also. It's an interesting invocation, and there are a ton of reasons why that might be out of place.

All this said, I always offer a BG territory to people who would like a more fixed spot to hone things and work out details. If you'd like a BG with coastline, please say so. I'm happy to grant it unconditionally in this case. Keep in mind that anything you do there can be relocated to the new territory once it is granted, so your work is not "lost" and time is not "wasted."

Cheers! — Alessa _(talk) 01:41, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

• • Hello; I almost forgot I made this application after some 35 days. I am aware there are indeed problems.

About the Japanese part; I can live without them; even though I could argue that Brazil was also unthinkable for Japanese people to live there too, since Brazil has the largest Japanese diaspora in the world. But I won't insist on keeping them if they don't fit in this region.

The large swathes of natural=wood may indeed a problem; but I never said I won't add details in those; it is possible to add other features, such as bare rocks, monasteries; even villages etc. That being said; I envision those areas to be generally a mountainous area so I doubt there can be much to be added.

Now the most problematic part; the city itself mapped there is already intended to be a newer section in the outer skirts, so it wasn't intended to add older sections or a coastline here. That being said; I planned expansions to go for a port or a more older parts of city (which I tried to imitate at eastern border, but cut in half due to said line). The problem was, I started off with a huge scaling error in first commit, with the junction there being 3km long and each house being 100 metre wide (they're still at least 20 metre wide after scaling down, which you can still call too big anyway). I realized this as soon as the render worked, and tried to remedy it afterwards; but because scaling down buildings created huge swath of empty area can't be filled with such detail without getting bored, and that I wasn't able to switch to another area to map (because I told myself to not exceed the borders I drew before filling inside substantially), I simply scaled down my activity instead; since I can't cool off the stress otherwise. This is the reason why such large area remained empty or why I didn't experiment with other styles, other than suburbia and blocks (both the "Victorian" imitation and the Soviet style). Not the mention without direct reference from OSM, I couldn't determine the exact distance between road and building, which is another annoyance.

Well, this is the background of why the urban mapping is disappointing for me, and should for everyone else too.

While on it; I can explain what I mean by Cypriot neighborhoods. Of course, this may fit more to Mediterranean but I deemed it could be applicable for a tropic country too. There is one case I can show off with two styles could be represented at the same time:

This is a village named Prastio, which is actually made of two parts. The north part, Agios Georgios, is the actual village area, and is the part that naturally evolved since it was always there. The south part, Neo Livadi, is a place that appeared later on, and looks more planned than a village from above. The context is that the government have relocated several mountainous villages during colonial era, in which another village named Livadia was moved here; so they built their own houses in a planned development (though buildings are still village buildings, mind you), and then called their part New Livadia.

A more urban example may be in interest too; for which I have two examples, Gönyeli and Lakatamia. Both suburbs have the feature of being developed from villages, which can be seen by taking a look at their core parts contrasting from rest of residential area. Buildings in core areas are usually standard village houses, while the rest of urban area is made of either apartment blocks or villas. Urbanism is a very late concept for the island; which is something I believe can work with the cities in this territory, especially since I'm planning to start with mapping older areas first for better consistency. (Not entirely as a village of course)

As for the conclusion, I never intended to have this mapping to be imported anywhere else; I am more than happy to discard it, except maybe a few good roads and buildings as sample. That being said; (maybe because I was doing this kind of plannings on paper a decade ago,) BG territories does seem beneath me, and idea of a "temporary accommodation" feels like a turn off. I have one alternative plan to possibly apply for (one of islands between Tarephia and Antarephia, which can potentially apply the discarded Japanese immigrants idea much better?); but I can take any other territory that isn't BG and can be applicable for this plan as well, which is probably something you admin people should discuss. Well, thanks in advance.

P.S: I don't know much about wiki formatting so I hope I won't catch the chance that I may break something with this response.

P.S 2: I don't know why the signing didn't work when I pasted them before during making of the application, maybe because I used visual editor? My keyboard doesn't have tilde on its own so I can only hope pasting it work this time. Afrandez (talk) 08:18, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Hello. You did the wiki markup right with the tildes, so all is good there. What happened was you copied the 'nowiki' tags also. Those negate the tildes.

Looking at your answers here, I admit that I'm even more confused than I was before. Let's tackle the easy point first. The issue with Japanese was not about a notable diaspora but about its presence as a colonial entity. Your initial write-up indicates Japanese were also colonists, and their language has been official rather than just simply being a largely assimilated diaspora. Including later immigrant communities is not an issue. The issue is with Japanese having been colonial and also it appearing on the map in official capacity. Again, that's simply based on Taka's plan for the continent. So, since you are fine with Japanese being left off (as official and appearing on the map), I am fine with that.

The next two points are summarized by this: you are asking for an advanced territory, but you have not demonstrated what would be needed for me to grant it. I initially was going to close the application on first glance with it being an advanced territory, but your mapping is good enough that I've decided to give your application a chance. In order to grant an advanced territory like this, I need to see samples of what you would do with it.

That said, I spoke with a fellow admin about other potential territories that might be of interest to you. AR074^∈⊾ and AR022b^∈⊾ are both territories that can fit your English penal colony with Spanish influence. In these two areas, later immigrant communities (German, Japanese) would probably be fine (just not colonial). Similarly, AR106^∈⊾ may be of interest, because there can be either an African or Asian substrate included already with the English and Spanish speaking colonists overlaying that. Might these be of interest to you? If so, please list which one, and I or that regional admin will be able to respond promptly. — Alessa _(talk) 13:05, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Hello again. I made a minor study and I believe I can adapt parts of my initial plan to AR106^∈⊾; though I may need to alter parts of the existing city design, and possibly insert a river in the middle. That being said; since the information on the continent indicates that the rough region should use African cultures, I will need to make an extra study to see through which specific culture I can try to adapt for natives to replace the Taino/Amazonian equivalent (maybe will go with Kongo or Shona(though this one is nowhere near tropical), but can't decide on it yet). As for language question, I can scale language usages down to a few cities/regions; with national language being English, the native language having a special status (example being Maori in New Zealand) and other three languages (German, Spanish, Japanese) being limited to regions; which should eliminate the language question in larger scale and appoint three peoples as a localized diaspora. Still, I may need to discuss the finer details with the regional admin to ensure consistency with plans and the grand design.

Before I conclude; I admitted it at the very first place that the region I applied was an overshot, because I wasn't able to fit the plan for a better area; other territories in the region were too "strip-y" or had too much land I wouldn't be able to efficiently fill (which I hoped having a peninsula could remedy). But well; there is still a possible mapping arrangement, and apparently there are options with other territories I can take in some distant future.

For the time being, however; I am fine with having AR106, assuming finer details can be discussed and an agreement can be reached. Thanks. Afrandez (talk) 14:05, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

I will notify the regional admin. Best wishes to you. — Alessa _(talk) 14:18, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Ok, i'm going to close out this application, as it will be cleaner for a new application for AR106 to be submitted once you have thought through the specifics and are ready to move forward with it. I would just caution toward "less is more" for the languages and cultures - i'm going to have real trouble considering an application which is African native languages, English, Spanish, German and Japanese. I would recommend picking two, with very slight touches of others.... /wangi (talk) 15:28, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

	Territory application closed
	Closing, user to submit a follow on application for another territory. /wangi (talk) 15:28, 22 July 2024 (UTC)