Forum:Territory application/UL07e - Mardoumakhstan (exchange from UL02i)

Forums → Territory application → Territory application/UL07e - Mardoumakhstan (exchange from UL02i)

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	Territory ID and proposed name
	The Territory ID (from OpenGeofiction:Territories, e.g. AR123a) and proposed name of the country

UL07e - Mardoumakhstan

This was the former name of the territory when it was owned by User:Stjur, and I'd like to keep it. If there's a problem with re-use, I'm happy to name it Burghutistan (Burgut meaning eagle in Uzbek).

I am requesting this territory in exchange for Arion (UL02i). I realize that this is an increase in size compared to Arion, but I ask admin to consider that I no longer have any substantial commitments in collaborative territories and have been able to equally focus on my current slate of territories.

	Physical geography
	An overview of climate, topography and landscape of the country. It is advised to also create a sketch, you can add a link to this (hosted on imgur or similar)

Landuse/Geography

Mardoumakhstan is a land of varying climates, ranging from the mediterranean/subtropical coast to the cold desert in the north. The country boasts multiple unique geographical features, including an endorheic lake, many distinct mountain chains, and of course the expansive steppe, from which the Mardoumakh people originate. the

	Human geography
	A brief description of the territory demographics, economic development, land occupation, infrastructure and mapping style

Cities

Nomadic settlement is common on the steppes, and to a lesser degree south of the central lake. In the mountains pastoralist transhumance (moving between defined pastures at different times of the year) is common. The longest history of permanent settlements lies on the Shelakh coast, which has a dense network of cities and farmland. Economic development is focused in the south, both around the central lake, in the valleys south of it, and on the coast. Overall, the country is poorer than its neighbours, but obviously there's significant variation. HDI is around 0.7.

Languages

The main language of the territory is Northern Uzbek, aka Mardoumakh. Shelakh, based on Etruscan, is spoken on the coast and in the western ranges. Arasian, a minor romance conlang, is spoken in the north, matching with the Navennese Arasian community on the other side of the border. A yet-to-be-named conlang based on Dalmatian will be spoken by a few minority communities (though I'm willing to change this if there's opposition to it). OGF:Karalkapak (name to be determined) will be spoken in the east. A conlang isolate with romance influences called Mharetic will be spoken in the south, and is intended to be a fairly unique culture with a unique religion and mapping style. Bordering territories will have their languages incorporated near the borders (Navenna, Plevia, Naphon, Suria). All languages use Latin script.

Religions

The main religion of Mardoumakhstan is Tengrism, with varying differences depending on the region and culture, there's also separate shamanism in some places. The Shelakh people were able to keep their polytheistic religion, established by Timboh as Poulafrism. The Mharetic region is the heartland of OGF:Manichaeism, aka Lurachaeism. Iman and Christicism are minority religions across the country - but there are a few particularly notable areas where Christicism is in the majority, generally thanks to Navennese/Plevian influences.

Mapping style will be inspired by diverse areas, such as Uzbekistan and Central Asia in general (though since Mardoumakhstan will have never been under Surian control, communist-era urbanism will not be common), Italy, the Caucasus, the Balkan coast, northern Iran, and so on.

	History & culture
	A brief description of the intended culture and language

There are two major threads of Mardoumakh history - the history of the steppe, and the history of the Shelakh coast.

The Shelakhs were probably one of the earliest major civilizations on the Mediterranean, establishing a network of thalassocratic city-states along the Shelakh coast as early as 1000 BCE. This would continue until their amalgamation into the Romantian Empire, though possibly the southernmost cities were only tributaries. After the Romantian Empire pulled out of the region, the Shelakh states slowly re-asserted dominance, fighting among themselves and establishing a set of nine major kingdoms, but found a new rival in the rising Navennan state. Ultimately, Navenna conquered the Shelakh coast in the twelfth century. The Shelakh states, especially the major cities that are now part of Mardoumakhstan, were able to keep a relative degree of autonomy under the Navennese empire. A few rump states remained in the mountains until they were eventually conquered by the Mardoumakh khanate.

In the steppe, meanwhile, the centuries tell the long story of the Mardoumakh people establishing control over the interior from their homeland on the western steppe. The first Mardoumakh Khanate reached its peak in the eighth century, and engaged in devastating raids on the Shelakh coast and modern-day Navenna, but collapsed after a few decades and had to pull back due to disease and a succession crisis. Over the following centuries, the degree of unity oscillated until the Fourth Khanate conquered the resource-rich Mharete Kingdom in the south in 1239. The newly-declared khaganate saw a period of fairly rapid expansion eastwards over the next century and a half, engaging in multiple conflicts with the Surian Tsardom. Between the fifteenth and seventeenth centuries the khaganate underwent a period of relative stagnation and decline, but nonetheless relative peace, enabling increased trade across the steppe and mountains. After the empire splintered during a succession dispute in the early 1600s, and with Suria pressing on the eastern dominions, the Fifth Mardoumakh khanate, reduced back to approximately the modern borders, decided to invade Navenna, in particular the Shelakh dominions. Navenna had started to entire a period of decline of its own, and after an intense war, the modern borders were basically established on the coast. Various skirmishes would continue until the 19th century, with Navenna notably shrinking the Mardoumakh-held territory around Nouspoor and the khanate taking some mountain valleys.

The country would persist until the modern day, seeing reforms towards a more democratic structure in the late nineteenth century.

Similarly to the Mongol Empire, the Mardoumakh were accepting of native cultures, religions, and language - assuming that those they conquered accepting the sovereignty of the Mardoumakh state, of course. Tengrism is a religion that is able to work syncretically with others. The khanate established governorates in occupied regions (so Shelakhia, Mharetia, and OGF:Karalkapak), with a Mardoumakh elite, but the local government and customs effectively unchanged. In the modern day, this has translated into outlying provinces with a great deal of autonomy, with the federal government (a more democratic incarnation of the traditional Mardoumakh tribal council), retaining greater control of the central interior. I imagine it was a fairly delicate balancing act to manage the country under the rise of nationalism, but a national identity as a multicultural country united by shared history and cultural ties has probably developed by the modern day. The government system will be fleshed out as I do more research into traditional methods of government on the steppes.

	Past mapping
	To support your request provide links to areas of OGF mapping which showcase your mapping skill. Mapping relevant to the requested theme & geography is especially useful
	The {{coord}} template can optionally be used to link to the OGF map - it results in a nice formatted link. Or you can paste in a URL.

Orlioni, Arion: https://opengeofiction.net/#map=14/18.4969/51.8752&layers=B

Kleio, Arion: https://opengeofiction.net/#map=17/18.83074/53.67908&layers=B

Gemera, Arion: https://opengeofiction.net/#map=14/18.8028/51.6347&layers=B

Maka: https://opengeofiction.net/#map=11/2.4019/93.0048&layers=B

Points Sagrin, Plevia: https://opengeofiction.net/#map=14/45.8600/57.4891&layers=B

Lakeshore, Teotiyolcan: https://opengeofiction.net/#map=14/-11.0291/14.9334&layers=B

	Username & date
	Sign and date the application by typing four tildes like this: ~~~~

User:Lithium-Ion | [1] (talk) 01:20, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

	Discussion
	Discussion for clarification & decision

If the application is approved I plan to move a lot of my mapping from Arion to one city + island + surroundings on the coast. I'm happy to clear the admin boundaries from the vacated territory - my last wish is to give admin any extra grief! User:Lithium-Ion | [2] (talk) 01:20, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

It would be nice to see you mapping in the region but I have two comments about this application. First is about OGF islam. It is not imanism but Iman (from Arabic word for faith). Second is more a comment on Uzbek alphabet. It is well known that alphabets used in Central Asian countries change almost as often as countries in OGF and Uzbek alphabet is no exception to the rule. Currently in Uzbek o represents two sounds (one is /o/, second is imported sound from Persian written in IPA as greek letter alpha while a represents /a/). /Alpha/ (present in stan/ston and other words of Persian origin) is non-existent in other Turkic languages but when spoken it sounds more closer to a, than o in these languages (and is transliterated as a or a with chevron in latinization of Persian). This is some thing to consider when writing Uzbek names and translating them to other languages. Other is that the mess with Turkic languages writing system is largely Soviet fault and Uzbek is most heavily experienced by their (intentional or not) mistakes (beside the /a/ and /alpha/ problem Soviets removed i anda ı distinction and as a result they melted into one sound represented by I which killed vowel harmony in Uzbek). Going to conclusion you should probably not feel very tied to current Uzbek writing system. It's artificial and subject of constant change and it should be taken to consideration especially when making translations. Rustem Pasha (talk) 05:38, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment, I appreciate the feedback! I have to confess that language is not my forte so I didn't investigate Uzbek's latinization - I'll be sure to take your information into account and alter Mardoumakh so that the system matches what's spoken and isn't representative of non-existent Surian reforms. I've changed imanism to Iman as well. --User:Lithium-Ion | [3] (talk) 06:00, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

You should probably look at Wikipedian article about Uzbek alphabet. When I decided to include small Uzbek minority in Demirhan Empire's Koşangar Uçbeyliği for example I ignored poor Soviet and Uzbek attempts to write it well and used Common Turkic alphabet (another one which groups /ɑ/ and /a/ as a) instead. This is how it looks on map. It makes sense for Demirhan to go that way as all languages across the country have alphabets based on Turkish alphabet but for Mardoumakhstan it would be perceived as political manifest of good ties with Demirhan. It would potentially be seen as similar to relations between between Azerbaijan and Turkey - Azerbaijan is the only country which entirely followed the guidelines of Common Turkic alphabet but as we know their government has doubts if Azeris exist as a separate nation from Turks. Rustem Pasha (talk) 10:01, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Interesting to see this moving again, a new potential neighbor for Plevia.

If your request gets approved, I will be happy to discuss with you about the border and the reciprocal influence of the two countries. --Izaland Terramorphing Committee (talk) 07:12, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi, Lithium. This is an interesting application in many ways. Before getting into my concerns and questions about the application itself, I have three technical points about exchanging the territory that I want to be transparent about upfront. I understand you wouldn't be able to do page deletion (I can handle that), but there is still a minor Arion presence on the wiki. If this goes through, it is always best for the person doing the exchange to clear it out. Secondly, and much more importantly, the boundary with Aden… I am unconcerned with Maytam or the splitting of Iberakos Island; leaving a somewhat complex border is fine. But, there are four islands and one tiny exclave on a fifth that will need to be sorted. I wish to see if the border can be essentially "reset" with regards to these five things, since the territory would be empty. Obviously, any change requires agreement with Aad, but I do not want to leave it as complex as it is. Lastly, can you site specifically what you would be taking and if you would be reclaiming anything you left in UL02d would be taken. Thanks. — Alessa _(talk) 12:11, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Of course I'm happy to clear the wiki presence myself, that shouldn't pose an issue. Similarly, I'm happy to revert the exclaves back to their respective territories - if the exchange goes through, I imagine that I could immediately turn over my three island exclaves to Aden (to do with as Aad wishes), and I'd be happy to message him about it in hopes of removing his two minor exclaves. Since his are both empty I don't think there'll be any trouble. As for what mapping I plan on taking, here's a comprehensive list:

• Kleio, a small neighborhood that could easily be incorporated on a coastal city.
• Pasapolias and Orlioni will both be combined, sliced and diced and reworked (for instance, Pasapolias has a bunch of incongruous features that stem from it being built off of a pre-existing skeleton, moving it will allow me to properly delete what remains of that, cut down on some of the excessive infrastructure, and do other sensible things like moving the acropolis to a better spot) and turned into a medium-sized city on the coast, in the current location of Armashlinin.
• The rural villages around Orlioni (but not the inter-village road network) will be re-used on the coast.
• The northern half of Gemera will be moved to a new island off the coast here, assuming you have no objection - this mapping, while I'm happy with it, will also be reworked primarily in the natural aspect. I'd also like to possibly move this island since I quite like the shape, but I'm still undecided.
• Laros would be moved to become an outlying town from a city on the coast from the 18th century, built as a summer retreat by a rich Shelakh noble who wanted to keep in style with the Franquese. The northern section past the park (aka Old Laros) will be deleted entirely.
• These power plants will be moved somewhere in the territory, as will Lapicolli.

There's also some elements that I'd like to move to Plevia and Kalkara (I've discussed moving some things to Kalkara with KAB already, and I'd confirm with Izaland before moving the few items I have to Plevia).

• These towns would be moved to Plevia, along with some little chunks of farmland inland.
• While I'm ambivalent about the old town, at the very least it would be nice to move the cathedral of old Kretra to Kalkara, and I'd love it if somewhere in that country could fit these rural villages and these neighborhoods in Selebes. The sports complex in Seleves will be moved to Mardou. Basically everything that I haven't mentioned above is welcome in Kalkara at the discretion of you and KAB.

This should cover basically everything - I look forward to hearing your feedback on the application. Best, --User:Lithium-Ion | [4] (talk) 23:15, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Wonderful. Thank you so much for the comprehensive list. Let's talk via PM about the Kalkara proposals. I think we can work something out there. Just to let you know, I'm still pretty swamped for a couple more days but will definitely get this by mid-week. More very soon. — Alessa _(talk) 20:01, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello, Lithium. Here is some feedback from both Bixelkoven and myself. Thankfully we had the chance to exchange a couple of messages.

• The name Mardoumakhstan is great to re-use, and there seem to be no objections from Stjur about it. Personally, I'd endorse keeping it.
• The geography is very good, and it matches much of what we would want to see in the area and utilizes a good amount of the preexisting work.
• We oppose the use of Dalmatian at this point. It doesn't quite fit. There are far better locations for that language, unfortunately. I love the idea of the Romance conlang, however. I think that shows the historical bits of "Romantish" control of the western and southwestern third of the territory in days long past. We not only endorse the conlang, we'd encourage you to expand its reach as the replacement for Dalmatian. Consider random pockets of surviving speakers inland a bit to help with your story-telling.
• The religious idea sounds interesting. I do wonder if Manichaeism shouldn't play a more-prominent role here. I'd be very interested to see if you were open to expanding it. A key way to do that might be to have Manichaeism present in communities that spread west/northwest and managed to survive. Isolated pockets and religious facilities in further afield urban areas go a long way to show the multicultural society you're envisioning and tell the story of migration and/or missionary work. Similarly for Christicism and Poulafrism on that last point.
• Both Bixelkoven and I really dislike the Giang exclave. We have not asked Timboh about it, but would you be willing to exclude that and give it over to Navenna if he agrees? We both think that makes sense in this case. Historically, it seems weird to have the Mardoumakhs get a foothold on the coast here and not be pushed back by a surrounding Navennese polity.
• As an side: The status of Naphon is in flux. Please be willing to be flexible with changes that may occur in that area, even up to changing the theme, size, or number of territories.

If all these are "good-to-go," as they say, we unfortunately need to address the elephant in the room. There is no "good way" to do this, so please understand that my intent is not negative here.

At present, and if this application were approved, you would have five territories. To my knowledge, that is the most on OGF. I recognize that a couple of them are small island nations, but you're also asking for an enormous territory area that has numerous styles, themes, and cultures in it. (I am aware as well about the recent request for an expansion of two territories, also.) I am not worried about your mapping skill or ability to handle this territory on its own. Both Bixelkoven and I really do worry about the ability to take on something so large and so diverse and keep it moving forward. In effect, you're trading Arion for six different Arions. You have bounced through a lot of collab projects (it's great to have you involved in them), and you do scatter your edits across a few of the territories. You are still listed in Deodeca and other places as collab member. Are you able to put that time of involvement aside for a bit to get this territory going in a meaningful way? We really want to know that you can take this on and commit to it. Your vision for this territory has the potential to make it a major regional anchor. We think you are a great candidate to take on such task, but it is not something that can be treated like a side-project or even just another territory. Again, you're basically asking for numerous territories that happen to be all-in-one. Are you able to make that commitment? We must admit that we're not sure at this exact moment. It's our only real hold-up. We also think a commitment to something of this scope may require you to not move/change territories or request any other upsizing for the foreseeable future. Basically, we want to truly know that you're willing to commit, invest, and anchor this region with Navenna.

I do hope that makes sense. I look forward to hearing your response and thoughts. — Alessa _(talk) 03:33, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback! I'll go through the first part and then get to discussing your larger concerns.

• I'm glad you're fine with keeping the name and approve of the geography!
• I'm happy to axe Dalmatian - having more Mharetic communities (possibly with changing dialects moving up the mountains northwards) will be a good replacement and makes more sense anyways. Similarly, expanding Lurachaeism makes sense - Poulafrism and Christicism will also have minority groups throughout the country, but perhaps Lurachaeism could have had the most success in the missionary "wars" converting the Mardoumakh invaders, and thus could have a greater presence on the steppe and have influenced later temple designs there (etc). I need to do more research on Manichaean temple architecture, though I know there are examples of cave temples and above-ground ones. Will be interesting!
• Dropping Giang is fine by me (though hopefully the valleys north of the city can be kept?). Since I'd be losing some coast and a coastal city, would it be possible to get part or all of this island? One possibility for the island is a Shelakh city state, one that with a strategic location further into the sea would have had more direct Navenesse control, only seceding in the 1800s and being snapped up by Mardoumakhstan during a war or something. But maybe the island is a bit too much - in which case I'm happy to give up Giang nevertheless haha.

Now, it's time to get to the core issue - which I think you laid out very kindly. I completely understand the hesitation about giving me this territory, which is pretty major as far as OGF territories go. I had initially skimmed through your response and thought to myself that I should propose a "lock" on my territory ownership to show my commitment, and then I noticed you proposed it yourself! So, I'd like to agree to (if the application is granted) an indefinite lock on my territory ownership: as you've said, no moving, upsizing (so no upsize of Iscu and Maka, of course), or additional territories. I imagine that "indefinite" would be at minimum five years. Along with that would be an understanding that I will focus on my own territories for some time, with minimal collaborative participation. Obviously I realize that doesn't guarantee that I won't just stop mapping in UL07e after a month or something, so all I can offer in that regard is a sincere promise to stick with the territory. The diversity you mention is one reason why I'm so confident that I'll have the commitment and motivation to stick with it and having so many neighbours and such a rich history will provide a lot of motivation and material to build off of. One of the reasons I've stayed motivated with Iscu and Maka (Maka was originally applied for as an expansion of Iscu) for so long is because each island can be something a little different and new - and I think UL07e also has the ingredients of a forever home, if you will. In short, yes - I have the commitment for the territory.

Ironically, I actually can't promise constant activity for the next few weeks since I'm on vacation (one that might not let me have the time/energy to map) - but I am very excited to start doing as much as I can if the application is granted.

Best,

--User:Lithium-Ion | [5] (talk) 19:39, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, Lithium. All that sounds good. I sent a message to Timboh, but I think we can work this out in the near term and not wait on that to move this forward. One other thing to remind you: the status of Naphon is in flux. I wouldn't worry about incorporating any of that culture into your territory at this point. Focus on the nice mash-up you have. Thanks — Alessa _(talk) 19:54, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you so much! I understand about Naphon (thumbs up, in other words). I'll start the moving/deletion process now, and whatever Kalkara will recieve can be discussed between you, KAB, and I in the near future.--User:Lithium-Ion | [6] (talk) 20:02, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi there, as far as discussions revolving around Kalkara go, as a coordinator of the territory it would be most appreciated if I am kept in the loop when discussions about moving the mapping or otherwise Kalkara-related matters are active. Many thanks. KAB (talk) 06:18, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

	Territory application approved
	Approved with the changes made as laid out above. Thank you for taking care of the wiki cleanup for Arion in the process. — Alessa (talk) 19:54, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
	We are trusting the commitment to this territory and the willingness to invest in the region. Slight border issues with Navenna (and, as necessary, Naphon) will be worked out in short order. Please also be reminded that Naphon is not a fixed entity at the moment.