Forum:Ingrea/Change the country name?
Some Ingerland mappers (and others) have expressed a preference for a change of the country's name. Reasons include that the name Ingerland sounds like rather childish parody of England, and it is associated with some of the more hooligan, extreme and racist elements of English society.
A change of name could impact quite a few other countries, especially if it changes the language name too, involving a fair number of changes to the map and wiki. So, although the decision ultimately rests with Ingerland mappers, comments and ideas from the wider community are welcome.
So ... should the country (and language) name be changed? Any ideas for alternative names? Any other considerations? -- Pawl (talk) 16:46, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Discussion
While I support the name change (despite previously opposing it), I firmly believe that all (or at least an overwhelming majority) mappers of Ingerish-speaking countries, and especially mappers where Ingerland is incorporated into the name, must be on board with the name change and have a chance to contribute to this discussion before anything is decided. --Lithium-Ion | [1] (talk) 17:15, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
I also understand some folks might be hesitant about a drastic name change, since it also affects owners of New Ingerland and Ingerish Asperia. From discord conversations however, they seem busy at the moment and unable to offer input. I recommend that they should be allowed to provide their thoughts before moving on to a naming vote etc.--Zhenkang (talk) 02:38, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- I would personally prefer if the new name began with "I" so that I don't have to change the acronym of "IA", other than that, I'm all for a name change! --Arlo (talk) 03:07, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- While i'm not wrapped or convinced in the idea of making a change, I am also supportive of making any chage you decide to be a minimal as possible --Turnsole80 (talk) 11:10, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
Further thoughts: Sometimes lands are named after things the people who live there are attached to, (kinda like how Japan's name means "land of the rising sun") so if there's a plant, animal, or land feature that represents the fanaticized England that you're making maybe you could look into different celtic/germanic/other core European language's words for that thing and build off of that? Might also consider what the tribe on Ingerland is named and we deliberate from that too. Zhenkang (talk) 07:24, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
I support the name change. I am fairly ambivalent on what it is changed to and I think a lot of the suggestions below are fine and good. I would avoid Intheria as it is too similar to 'inferior' and thus an unfortunate thing to name a country! I certainly thing 'Ingerland' has run its course and is a bit of a ham-fisted parody of England. Myrcia (talk) 08:57, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Ingerland is a bit of a clunky name, but it's one we've had for a long time and I think it gets the point across of what the country is supposed to be. Like Turnsole80, I don't know if a name change is completely necessary, but if it is, then it should be as close to the original name as possible. Inderland is my favourite for this reason; it being an "inner land" or "homeland" is practical, and it has the added benefit of looking and sounding nice as well. ParAvion (talk) 20:43, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
In the spirit of keeping the change minimal, I am tending towards Ingria - it's short, rolls easily off the tongue (well, my tongue at least!), reminiscent of "Anglia", gives a good demonym - Ingrian - and the adjective/linguonym "Ingrish" is about as minimal a change as you can get. I'm not so keen on keeping the adjective "Ingerish" but would be OK with it if that's people's preference. Other variants on the name include "Ingric", "Ingrican" (the church), the prefix "Ingro-", the Ingrosphere ... -- Pawl (talk) 06:26, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
- While Ingria sounds pretty good to me as something to consider, doesn't Ingro- sound rather like "ingrown"? Not very pleasant, but could be fixed by changing the prefix to "Inger-" - though I realize that may not be preferable. --User:Lithium-Ion | [2] (talk) 14:49, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
I would prefer it if we moved away from Ingerland or things that sound a bit like England and use something entirely new. We naturally worry about making a change but I believe that whatever we come up with will become the new normal. That said, I appreciate that some mappers would like a name beginning with i or something similar to Ingerland. Also I don’t see why people can’t continue to use Ingerland if that’s what they want.. usage of Ingerland could be explained in any number for ways.
A few of my suggestions.. Meduland/Medland/Maedlund/Imedland
So trying to compliment the pattern of England but with a new first element. Med features in several English place names and could have various interesting origins that tie in with real world English themes.. for the alcoholic drink “mead” or old English for “meadow” or simply for “middle”.
Gailleni (the ancient tribe)/Gailendia(the literary name)/Gelland(the actual name)/Gellish(the people and language) - again trying to keep the pattern of England here, you could perhaps put an i at the start Igeland or a y Ygeland. -- ruadh (talk) 15 May 2024.
Apparently, "Ingria" is the name of a real-world area in Russia. We could change the spelling of this option to Ingrea. It could be pronounced Ingr-ee-a or Ingr-ay-a, with no change to the adjectives, or perhaps "Ingreish". -- Pawl (talk) 08:16, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- Not a mapper of the country here, just commenting. I got the same problem years ago with my country "Belgravia". It was sounding as a perfect slavic name to me, as "Beograd" + "Jugoslavia", hehehe, till I realize this name is a real (and famous) place in London. Well, now it is "Novakia", hehehe.
- Just another minor comment. "Ingreish" sounds to the few brasilian users as a redneck speaking wrong "inglês" (correct word) to "ingrêis" (no comments hahaha). -- BMSOUZA (talk) 02:27, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
Alternative names
Please add any suggestions you have for an alternative name (if the name is to change). Add your username in the last column by writing three tildas (~~~).
| Name | Adjective | Demonym | Linguonym | Comments | Suggested by |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Aecland | Aeclish | Aecodean | Aeclish | Could also be "Acland". From "ac/aec" the Old English word for "oak", thus "Oak-land". If someone could come up with something to put between aec and land it could perhaps be refined further. | Lithium-Ion | [3] (talk) |
| Anbion | Anbish | Anbian | Anbish | A play on Albion, an ancient alternative name for Britain. No etymology but I'm sure we can invent some! | Pawl (talk) |
| Brynland | Brynish | Brynian | Brynish | A Gearmanic mis-hearing and mis-understanding of the Caeltig Bryn y lan (Hill by the shore), which they thought was referring to a whole land and not just a particular hill (similar to "Canada" coming from an Iroquois word for "village"). | Pawl (talk) |
| Eldreland | Eldrenish | Eldrenian | Eldrenish | Similar to above (Ellerland), derived from Middle English Eldre. Further variants from other roots could be explored: Old English ellærn, Proto-Germanic *elernaz, *eldernaz | Zhenkang (talk) |
| Ellerland | Ellernish | Ellernian | Ellernish | To keep close to the sound of England/Ingerland. Initially derived from Elderland as the Elder tree (which produces elderberries) is native to England. From Middle English eller | Zhenkang (talk) |
| Gelland | Gellish | Gellish | Gellish | Gailleni (the ancient tribe)/Gailendia(the literary name). Trying to keep the pattern of England here; could perhaps put an i at the start - Igeland - or a y - Ygeland. | ruadh |
| Idriland | Idrish | Idrian | Idrish | Derived from Old English ædre, roughly translating as "channel land" or "river land". Benefit of beginning with I per Arlo's request, part of the border is across the channel from Kalm (and more might have been in along the channel in the past), and "channel land" could be a good homage to England without being a ripoff. | Ernestpkirby (talk) |
| Imedland | Medland (see below) with an I at the beginning. | ruadh | |||
| Inderland | Inderish | Inderish | Inderish | A minor change that preserves the initial "I", as Turnsole80 and Arlo indicated respectively. Would derive from the sense of "inner land" or "homeland" as an endonym for the peoples living in this area. Compare "inderly / inderlich" (Middle English forms of inner, inwards) | Diamantschiff (talk) |
| Indrenia | Indrenish | Indrenian | Indrenish | Keeping the "In" and from above suggestions (Ellerland/Eldreland) | Zhenkang (talk) |
| Ingrea | Ingrean/Ingrish | Ingrean | Ingrish/Ingerish | A variation "Ingria" below to avoid having a name which is identical to a area in Russia. | Pawl (talk) |
| Ingria | Ingrian/Ingrish | Ingrian | Ingrish/Ingerish | Just a simple contraction of the existing name to keep it as minimal of a change possible, paralleling a few real-world names in England, and allowing for the possibility of keeping "Ingerish" as a linguistic name to prevent additional changes. | Alessa |
| Intheria | Intherish/
Intherian |
Intherish/
Intherian |
Intherish/
Intherian |
Another variant of Lithium's solution. Or maybe Intherea. | Zhenkang (talk) |
| Intherland | Intherish | Intherish | Intherish | It's "Ingerland" but with a "th" instead of a "g". While it's still a pretty obvious England ripoff, it's far less egregious than before, and could possibly have an etymology related to "Hinterland" or, like England, the Inther people - whoever they are. | Lithium-Ion | [4] (talk) |
| Intherry | Intherish | Intherish | Intherish | A variation on Lithium's suggestion of Intherland that feels less like an obvious England ripoff while still having the same etymology and similar descriptors. | Ernestpkirby |
| Inthria | Inthrish | Inthrish | Inthrish | A variation on Lithium's suggestion of Intherland that feels less like an obvious England ripoff while still having the same etymology and similar descriptors. | Ernestpkirby |
| Maedland | Trying to compliment the pattern of England but with a new first element. Med features in several English place names and could have various interesting origins that tie in with real world English themes.. for the alcoholic drink “mead” or old English for “meadow” or simply for “middle”. | ruadh | |||
| Medland | ruadh | ||||
| Meduland | ruadh | ||||
| Prenland | Prenish | Prenian | Prenish | Similar to above (Brynland) but as an alternative spelling variant, partly inspired by how Pretany was derived from Brittany | Zhenkang (talk) |
| Rhedland | Rhedian | Rheddian | Rhedian | From the Anglo-Saxon goddess Rheda (thought to be the counterpart of Ares) + Germanic suffix -land | IiEarth (talk) |
| Wallenthea | Wallenthean | Wallenthean | Wallenthean | Inspired by the name of the island that Ingerland is located on. | Sergjack (talk) |
Selection time!
It would be good to get this question sorted out soon, so can I invite all Ingerland mappers plus Turnsole and Arlo to post their first choice of name below from the list by the end of Monday 20th May?
If a single name is chosen by a majority of those who post, that will settle it. Otherwise, I suggest we have another couple of days to discuss the choices and/or move to a runoff vote between the top two choices (if there is a top two) so that we reach a final decision by the end of Monday 27th May.
If there are a lot of chosen names (worst case - seven different choices!) we'll have to adopt a slightly different strategy, e.g. add in second choices (but perhaps only from the list of first-choices names).
thanks -- Pawl (talk) 20:04, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
Choices
Pawl : Ingrea
Myrcia: Ingrea
Arlo: Ingrea
ruadh: Ingrea
Turnsole80: Ingria
Result: Ingrea
Thank you for voting, folks!
So, with 4 out of 5 of the votes cast, and out of a possible 7 votes, we have chosen Ingrea as the new name! I'll talk to admin about how to proceed with changes on the map and wiki.
The next question is: which adjective/linguonym do we want to go for? I think my preference is Ingrean, but perhaps we should stick with Ingerish if only to minimize the change (but have Ingrean as a demonym). What do you think? -- Pawl (talk) 05:42, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- Glad to see there was such resounding agreement. I will start making wiki changes soon. Whatever the project decides on the demonym, it is my belief that changing the language name represents a much broader impact. Should there be a strong desire to change the language (beyond something simple like dropping the e: Ingerish-to-Ingrish), there are other stakeholders that should speak to this. Let's discuss and see what comes of it. I haven't a strong opinion either way at this moment. — Alessa (talk) 12:46, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- Just want to jump in here - I realize I'm not part of the Ingrea project (at least not yet!) but I do have three Ingerish-speaking countries and would prefer the language to stay the same (or just change to Ingrish). Ideally the demonym would stay the same as well, but I don't mind a change to at all. That said, Ingrean sounds and looks far better than Ingean to me (In-gee-in? In-geh-an? ick). --User:Lithium-Ion | [5] (talk) 18:31, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- Yup, i'm with you on this. That certainly trips off the tongue a lot better than Ingerish ever did, so that'll be quite nice. So, that will my little country New Ingrea. Do we think that works, or does this now provide an opportunity to choose a new name? Turnsole80 (talk) 07:30, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- I see! I had wondered if that might have been the case lol. --User:Lithium-Ion | [6] (talk) 19:53, 23 May 2024 (UTC)